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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 1/7/2010 Posts: 4,072 Location: WI
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Is THIS commandment Obsolete? "If a man loses pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music in which he hears, however measured, or far away.” Henry David Thoreau
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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,975
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TerryD wrote:Is THIS commandment Obsolete? Not for Israelites or their generations to come.
But for gentiles? Hmm...
Not for gentiles either, because it never applied to us.
Something can't be obsolete if it was never owned.
Sorry, I'm not claiming this one either.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 1/7/2010 Posts: 4,072 Location: WI
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stevelundgren wrote:TerryD wrote:Is THIS commandment Obsolete? Not for Israelites or their generations to come.
But for gentiles? Hmm...
Not for gentiles either, because it never applied to us.
Something can't be obsolete if it was never owned.
Sorry, I'm not claiming this one either.
Are the Israelites under the new covenant? "If a man loses pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music in which he hears, however measured, or far away.” Henry David Thoreau
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,975
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TerryD wrote:Are the Israelites under the new covenant? That's an interesting question.
No. As a group, the Israelites are not under the new covenant.
In fact, as a group, Christians are not under the new covenant.
Here's why. (And I can understand now why this is confusing.)
As a general rule everyone is still under the old covenant.
Those who are not under the new covenant will be judged by law. The law of the old covenant.
We were all born under the old covenant. It applies to everyone at birth.
Being born in a Christian home does not put one under the new covenant.
Being raised in a Christian home does not put one under the new covenant.
Being baptized as an infant does not put one under the new covenant. (believe and be baptized)
Being a member of a "Christian" denomination does not put one under the new covenant.
Going to church every week and (seemingly) obeying the Ten Commandments does not put one under the new covenant.
Being under the new covenant is an individual decision. Each person has a choice.
Even those in the Old Testament seemed to have the choice of faith. See Hebrews 11.
So when I say "we" are not under law, I am not talking about everyone.
The old covenant and its laws apply to everyone that is not under the new covenant.
Those who go into eternity under the old covenant will be judged by the law.
And they won't be judged on a curve. It's a pass/fail grading system, and everyone fails!
Those individuals who are under the new covenant are the ones who accept the sacrifice that puts them there.
This is the good news. The message of redemption. The offer of reconciliation to God. The gift of salvation.
That's right, the GIFT of salvation. It can't be earned by obedience to the law. God's mercy on our lost souls.
To be under law means to accept the judgement of law. Being under the old covenant means being judged by the law.
To be under grace means the judgement of law has been cancelled for us individually.
Being under the new covenant means being free from the burden and judgement of the law.
It is NOT however, a license to sin with impunity.
That's why it amazes me to see "christians" insisting that "we" are still under law.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 1/7/2010 Posts: 4,072 Location: WI
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stevelundgren wrote:TerryD wrote:Are the Israelites under the new covenant? That's an interesting question.
No. As a group, the Israelites are not under the new covenant.
In fact, as a group, Christians are not under the new covenant.
Here's why. (And I can understand now why this is confusing.)
As a general rule everyone is still under the old covenant.
Those who are not under the new covenant will be judged by law. The law of the old covenant.
We were all born under the old covenant. It applies to everyone at birth.
Being born in a Christian home does not put one under the new covenant.
Being raised in a Christian home does not put one under the new covenant.
Being baptized as an infant does not put one under the new covenant. (believe and be baptized)
Being a member of a "Christian" denomination does not put one under the new covenant.
Going to church every week and (seemingly) obeying the Ten Commandments does not put one under the new covenant.
Being under the new covenant is an individual decision. Each person has a choice.
Even those in the Old Testament seemed to have the choice of faith. See Hebrews 11.
So when I say "we" are not under law, I am not talking about everyone.
The old covenant and its laws apply to everyone that is not under the new covenant.
Those who go into eternity under the old covenant will be judged by the law.
And they won't be judged on a curve. It's a pass/fail grading system, and everyone fails!
Those individuals who are under the new covenant are the ones who accept the sacrifice that puts them there.
This is the good news. The message of redemption. The offer of reconciliation to God. The gift of salvation.
That's right, the GIFT of salvation. It can't be earned by obedience to the law. God's mercy on our lost souls.
To be under law means to accept the judgement of law. Being under the old covenant means being judged by the law.
To be under grace means the judgement of law has been cancelled for us individually.
Being under the new covenant means being free from the burden and judgement of the law.
It is NOT however, a license to sin with impunity.
That's why it amazes me to see "christians" insisting that "we" are still under law.
That explains why society is going into the dumps. "If a man loses pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music in which he hears, however measured, or far away.” Henry David Thoreau
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,975
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TerryD wrote:That explains why society is going into the dumps. For a lack of New Covenant Grace or a lack of old covenant law?
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Member
Joined: 8/14/2010
Posts: 13
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the ten commandments are the only thing that is written by God himself, and not given to man to interpret as he sees fit. they are referred to by Christ as the law of God. Example-the first 4 are our duty or love to God. The last 6 show our duty or love to our fellow man. This is the law of heaven and cannot be altered or changed. Christ said, Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and thy neighbor as thyself. Jesus Himself kept the Sabbath (the seventh-day) not the first day. what right do we have to set ourselves above God and say,(I know better than you) this was the condition of Satan in heaven. that's why we are the condition we are in.
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,975
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davidnclo wrote:the ten commandments are the only thing that is written by God himself, and not given to man to interpret as he sees fit. they are referred to by Christ as the law of God. Example-the first 4 are our duty or love to God. The last 6 show our duty or love to our fellow man. This is the law of heaven and cannot be altered or changed. Christ said, Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and thy neighbor as thyself. Jesus Himself kept the Sabbath (the seventh-day) not the first day. what right do we have to set ourselves above God and say,(I know better than you) this was the condition of Satan in heaven. that's why we are the condition we are in. Another sabbatarian?
"Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and thy neighbor as thyself" are outside of the Ten Commandments.
According to your logic that means they were NOT "written by God himself", so they CAN "be altered or changed".
Colossians 2:16-17 NIV
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 640
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Does that mean, according to you, that he's going to hell?
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,975
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mistero wrote:
Does that mean, according to you, that he's going to hell?
No, of course not.
Sabbath doctrine is not a salvation issue from my perspective.
It's more likely that a sabbatarian would doubt my salvation.
According to them, I am a sabbath-breaker or "Sundaykeeper".
Shabbot shalom.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 640
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If it isn't a salvation issue, why fuss about it?
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,975
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mistero wrote:If it isn't a salvation issue, why fuss about it? It is a salvation issue to a sabbatarian.
The sabbatarians claim that if you are in disobedience to God's moral law (the Ten Commandments) that you are not saved. They claim that the sabbath law is for gentiles too.
Jesus came to seek and save those who are lost.
The sabbatarians have come to seek and enslave those who are saved.
I stand firmly against this religious slave trade.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 1/17/2008 Posts: 4,038
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Is breaking the Fourth Commandment a sin? If so, isn't sin a salvation issue? If I murder, as a livelihood, isn't that a salvation issue? how about if I steal chickens, is my salvation at risk, continuing to steal chickens. If I persistently break the sabbath of the Bible and wish to be saved, shouldn"t I repent of my sabbathbreaking and conform to the requirements of the law? REv 21:27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. "defileth" isn't that "sin"..................Rom 7:7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Rom 3:20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. This verse plainly says that "by the law is the knowledge of sin". We are justified thru Jesus Christ. All the law does is point out sin. So then, is ignoring the sabbath a sin? A salvation issue? yes! Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy law.
Ps 119:136
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,975
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There you go, mistero.
Here's something interesting. Look at this quote.
"Rom 3:20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
This verse plainly says that "by the law is the knowledge of sin". We are justified thru Jesus Christ. All the law does is point out sin." - paulwhut
Yes, "by the law is the knowledge of sin". What else does the verse say?
By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified.
Yet what does paulwhut require of us? Deeds of the law.
When Jesus said, "It is finished." he meant it.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Member
Joined: 8/14/2010
Posts: 13
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Steve I think that we all need to understand the chronology of the book of Romans - It starts out establishing the fact that we are all sinners and that no matter how you keep the Law it cannot save you, because you have sinned at least one time in your life. (How many transgressions did it take to get us into this mess? Only one! so that means that no one can be saved if you have transgressed ONE time.) We need the blood of Jesus to cover our sins. GRACE. Then Paul goes on to give-the rest of the story.- He says "Romans 6:16 what then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. The original sin of Satan was to say to God that His law was not for the good of all, and that he(Satan) knew better. Well we know where that got him and us. I'm not talking about the ceramonial laws because they are a shadow of things to come. that is The life and sacrifice of Jesus. The Sabbath is a memorial of Creation. What would happen to those who think it took millions of years to evolve if they understood that we were created in the image of God. To me the sabbath is simply taking God at his word and getting close to Him. Not trying to make excuses to say "I know better than you"
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,975
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davidnclo wrote:Steve I think that we all need to understand the chronology of the book of Romans - It starts out establishing the fact that we are all sinners and that no matter how you keep the Law it cannot save you, because you have sinned at least one time in your life. (How many transgressions did it take to get us into this mess? Only one! so that means that no one can be saved if you have transgressed ONE time.) We need the blood of Jesus to cover our sins. GRACE. Then Paul goes on to give-the rest of the story.- He says "Romans 6:16 what then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. The original sin of Satan was to say to God that His law was not for the good of all, and that he(Satan) knew better. Well we know where that got him and us. I'm not talking about the ceramonial laws because they are a shadow of things to come. that is The life and sacrifice of Jesus. The Sabbath is a memorial of Creation. What would happen to those who think it took millions of years to evolve if they understood that we were created in the image of God. To me the sabbath is simply taking God at his word and getting close to Him. Not trying to make excuses to say "I know better than you" Thanks David.
Just to be clear, I have no problem with your decision to obseve the jewish sabbath.
You are free in Christ to do that.
However, you seem to be inferring that everyone should do that. That's what I have a problem with.
I understand that to be judaizing. That's what the circumcision group was up to in the new testament.
Trying to get gentiles to follow the law of Moses. See Acts 15.
In the new testament the law is a singular thing. You can't insert the word ceremonial in front of law wherever you feel like it to make the doctrine work to your presumption.
- Can you show me in the new testament where gentiles are clearly being instructed to observe the jewish sabbath?
- Can you show me in the new testament where failure of a gentile to observe the jewish sabbath is listed as a sin?
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 1/7/2010 Posts: 4,072 Location: WI
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stevelundgren wrote:davidnclo wrote:Steve I think that we all need to understand the chronology of the book of Romans - It starts out establishing the fact that we are all sinners and that no matter how you keep the Law it cannot save you, because you have sinned at least one time in your life. (How many transgressions did it take to get us into this mess? Only one! so that means that no one can be saved if you have transgressed ONE time.) We need the blood of Jesus to cover our sins. GRACE. Then Paul goes on to give-the rest of the story.- He says "Romans 6:16 what then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. The original sin of Satan was to say to God that His law was not for the good of all, and that he(Satan) knew better. Well we know where that got him and us. I'm not talking about the ceramonial laws because they are a shadow of things to come. that is The life and sacrifice of Jesus. The Sabbath is a memorial of Creation. What would happen to those who think it took millions of years to evolve if they understood that we were created in the image of God. To me the sabbath is simply taking God at his word and getting close to Him. Not trying to make excuses to say "I know better than you" Thanks David.
Just to be clear, I have no problem with your decision to obseve the jewish sabbath.
You are free in Christ to do that.
However, you seem to be inferring that everyone should do that. That's what I have a problem with.
I understand that to be judaizing. That's what the circumcision group was up to in the new testament.
Trying to get gentiles to follow the law of Moses. See Acts 15.
In the new testament the law is a singular thing. You can't insert the word ceremonial in front of law wherever you feel like it to make the doctrine work to your presumption.
- Can you show me in the new testament where gentiles are clearly being instructed to observe the jewish sabbath?
- Can you show me in the new testament where failure of a gentile to observe the jewish sabbath is listed as a sin?
From http://www.ceremoniallaw.com/
Ceremonial Law Introduction When God led the children of Israel out of Egyptian bondage, He delivered to them in fiery majesty the Ten Commandments. This Holy law was spoken by God, written by God, recorded on tables of stone, and is of eternal duration. At the same time the ceremonial law, of temporary usage, was also delivered to the children of Israel. This law dealt with the ceremonial rites of the Jewish sanctuary service, and concerned itself with a system of religion that passed away at the cross. Large sections of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy describe in detail this temporary ceremonial law. This ceremonial law can easily be identified in the Scriptures. It talks about circumcision (a religious Jewish rite), sacrifices, offerings, purifications, holy days, and other rites associated with the Hebrew sanctuary service. "If a man loses pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music in which he hears, however measured, or far away.” Henry David Thoreau
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,975
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That smacks of SDA sabbatarianism bias.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 1/7/2010 Posts: 4,072 Location: WI
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stevelundgren wrote:That smacks of SDA sabbatarianism bias.
I looked to see if it was an SDA site. Couldn't find any alliance. "If a man loses pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music in which he hears, however measured, or far away.” Henry David Thoreau
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,975
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TerryD wrote:stevelundgren wrote:That smacks of SDA sabbatarianism bias.
I looked to see if it was an SDA site. Couldn't find any alliance. Try this.
Do a search on "Secret Rapture SDA" and see what comes up.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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