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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,985
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TerryD wrote:I'm saying you always have to obey the law in order to be under grace. If you break the law, you have to repent to get back into god's grace. You do not have to sacrifice a lamb. Jesus took the place of the lamb. Terry,
Grace is defined as unmerited favor.
If you have to obey the old testament law to be under grace, that would mean it is merited. Right?
It doesn't mean we have a license to sin, but one is either under grace or not. It doesn't change from moment to moment.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,985
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TerryD wrote:The law is more than the ten commandments? When these verses refer to those under the law, they are the ones following Jewish religion. I'm in partial agreement.
The Ten Commandments are part of the law. A subset of all the laws in the old covenant.
They are farther reaching than just having to do with following Jewish religion.
Those not under grace will be judged by the law. (No thanks!)
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 1/7/2010 Posts: 4,072 Location: WI
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stevelundgren wrote:TerryD wrote:I'm saying you always have to obey the law in order to be under grace. If you break the law, you have to repent to get back into god's grace. You do not have to sacrifice a lamb. Jesus took the place of the lamb. Terry,
Grace is defined as unmerited favor.
If you have to obey the old testament law to be under grace, that would mean it is merited. Right?
It doesn't mean we have a license to sin, but one is either under grace or not. It doesn't change from moment to moment.
From Strong's 1) grace a) that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech 2) good will, loving-kindness, favour a) of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues 3) what is due to grace a) the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace b) the token or proof of grace, benefit 1) a gift of grace 2) benefit, bounty 4) thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward I would choose 4. "If a man loses pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music in which he hears, however measured, or far away.” Henry David Thoreau
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 1/7/2010 Posts: 4,072 Location: WI
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stevelundgren wrote:TerryD wrote:The law is more than the ten commandments? When these verses refer to those under the law, they are the ones following Jewish religion. I'm in partial agreement.
The Ten Commandments are part of the law. A subset of all the laws in the old covenant.
They are farther reaching than just having to do with following Jewish religion.
Those not under grace will be judged by the law. (No thanks!)
If you are Jewish and don't believe Jesus is the Messiah you have to seek forgiveness in the old way. If you believe Jesus is the Messiah you do it the new way. The 10 commandments are the manual for not needing forgiveness. "If a man loses pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music in which he hears, however measured, or far away.” Henry David Thoreau
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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 1/17/2008 Posts: 4,039
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Good Morning America, all you thread buddies! Today is Tuesday, the Third day of the week!
In these times of severe economic stress, I recommend to you God as a Partner.
Give to Him the attention and reverence He requires and as His children he will gather you under His wings. Return to Him his tithe and offerings and as is promised in Malachi He will return to you His blessings.
Psalms 91:
1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
9 Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.
14 Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
15 He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
16 With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.
There is no other economic plan that is so effective. The One who created heaven and earth in six days can certainly help you in your life.
Of course it is a life style. Walking with God and committing your life to him is the answer.
Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.
Tuesday July 27
Promise and Law
“For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith” (Rom. 4:13).
In this verse, “promise” and “law” are contrasted. Paul is seeking to establish an Old Testament base for his teaching of righteousness by faith. He finds an example in Abraham, whom all the Jews accepted as their ancestor. Acceptance or justification had come to Abraham quite apart from the law. God made a promise to Abraham that he was to be “heir of the world.” Abraham believed this promise; that is, he accepted the role that it implied. As a result God accepted him and worked through him to save the world. This remains a powerful example of how grace was operating in the Old Testament, which is no doubt why Paul used it.
Read Romans 4:14–17. How does Paul here continue showing how salvation by faith was central to the Old Testament? See also Gal. 3:7–9.
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It’s important to remember, as we said in the beginning, to whom Paul is writing. These Jewish believers were immersed in Old Testament law, and many came to believe that their salvation rested on how well they kept the law, even though that was not what the Old Testament taught.
In seeking to remedy this misconception, Paul argued that Abraham, even prior to the law at Sinai, received the promises, not by works of the law (which would have been hard, since the law—the whole Torah and ceremonial system—was not in place yet) but by faith.
If Paul here were referring to the moral law exclusively, which existed in principle even before Sinai, the point remains the same. Perhaps even more so! Seeking to receive God’s promises through the law, he said, makes faith void, even useless. Those are strong words, but his point is that faith saves, and the law condemns. He’s trying to teach about the futility of seeking salvation by the very thing that leads to condemnation, because we all, Jew and Gentile, have violated the law, and, hence, we all need the same thing as Abraham did: the saving righteousness of Jesus credited to us by faith.
Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy law.
Ps 119:136
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,985
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TerryD wrote:From Strong's
1) grace
a) that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech
2) good will, loving-kindness, favour
a) of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues
3) what is due to grace
a) the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
b) the token or proof of grace, benefit
1) a gift of grace
2) benefit, bounty
4) thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward
I would choose 4. You would choose only 4?
It's not a menu, it's a definition with four components.
That would be like buying a car but only taking home the wheels.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,985
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TerryD wrote:If you are Jewish and don't believe Jesus is the Messiah you have to seek forgiveness in the old way. If you believe Jesus is the Messiah you do it the new way. The 10 commandments are the manual for not needing forgiveness. That's not the way it works. Though it is true that many try that.
Can anyone truly keep even the first commandment?
What of the rest of God's law? Do we discount that because it isn't in the Ten Commandments?
The SDA focuses on the Ten Commandments and the dietary laws.
Why draw the line there? Where do you draw the line?
Jesus came to his own. They did not receive him.
Consequently, all are now invited to receive him.
Only those who do receive him have the right to become children of God.
John 1:10-13 NIV
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,985
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paulwhut wrote:... Those are strong words, but his point is that faith saves, and the law condemns. He’s trying to teach about the futility of seeking salvation by the very thing that leads to condemnation, because we all, Jew and Gentile, have violated the law, and, hence, we all need the same thing as Abraham did: the saving righteousness of Jesus credited to us by faith. Once again I am amazed that the SDA would publish this.
It seems to be in clear violation of their "spirit of prophecy" in EGW.
Look at these points:
- faith saves, and the law condemns.
- The futility of seeking salvation by the very thing that leads to condemnation. (the law)
- We all, Jew and Gentile, have violated the law.
- We all need the same thing as Abraham did.
- The saving righteousness of Jesus credited to us by faith.
Must be bait and switch again.
Here's how it works:
1) Read the study above and conclude that the SDA believes the same thing you do.
2) Change your mind about them and decide they are okay.
3) Visit their church for a special "visitors' service.
4) Be invited to one of their prophecy conferences.
5) If you survive that, then you are ripe for the picking.
6) Then they bully you into joining their church.
7) Next they put the shackles of the law on you as dictated by EGW.
8) The next thing you know, you are stuck in the house eating cold leftovers on Saturday sabbath while your friends play.
Bummer.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 1/7/2010 Posts: 4,072 Location: WI
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stevelundgren wrote:TerryD wrote:From Strong's
1) grace
a) that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech
2) good will, loving-kindness, favour
a) of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues
3) what is due to grace
a) the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
b) the token or proof of grace, benefit
1) a gift of grace
2) benefit, bounty
4) thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward
I would choose 4. You would choose only 4?
It's not a menu, it's a definition with four components.
That would be like buying a car but only taking home the wheels.
The definition is 4 SEPERATE meanings for grace. 4 seems to fit the situation the best to me. "If a man loses pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music in which he hears, however measured, or far away.” Henry David Thoreau
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,985
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TerryD wrote:The definition is 4 SEPERATE meanings for grace. 4 seems to fit the situation the best to me. I've lost track of the situation that we were discussing. LOL
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 1/7/2010 Posts: 4,072 Location: WI
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stevelundgren wrote:TerryD wrote:The definition is 4 SEPERATE meanings for grace. 4 seems to fit the situation the best to me. I've lost track of the situation that we were discussing. LOL
See 13138 "If a man loses pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music in which he hears, however measured, or far away.” Henry David Thoreau
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,985
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stevelundgren wrote:TerryD wrote:The law is more than the ten commandments? When these verses refer to those under the law, they are the ones following Jewish religion. I'm in partial agreement.
The Ten Commandments are part of the law. A subset of all the laws in the old covenant.
They are farther reaching than just having to do with following Jewish religion.
Those not under grace will be judged by the law. (No thanks!) So you see grace in this situation being defined as "thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward"?
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 1/17/2008 Posts: 4,039
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You forgot the "civil" law. You got the Moral, Dietary, Civil. The one that was done away with was the "ceremonial" law. I'm suffering now because of the "dietary" law..............=( went to the carnaval tonight and ate fries and a piece of pizza and a chocolate milkshake.............and instead of being in bed at 2100 hrs and snoozing, am sitting upright.................. got about another hour to go.......... dumb da dumm dumm............dummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I could post some more EGW, or the Catecishm ......hey burped again good good..........what say I post the 119 Psalm.......that'll get your goat. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy law.
Ps 119:136
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 1/7/2010 Posts: 4,072 Location: WI
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stevelundgren wrote:stevelundgren wrote:TerryD wrote:The law is more than the ten commandments? When these verses refer to those under the law, they are the ones following Jewish religion. I'm in partial agreement.
The Ten Commandments are part of the law. A subset of all the laws in the old covenant.
They are farther reaching than just having to do with following Jewish religion.
Those not under grace will be judged by the law. (No thanks!) So you see grace in this situation being defined as "thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward"?
Reward for obayng the ten cammandments or repenting if you don't, yes. "If a man loses pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music in which he hears, however measured, or far away.” Henry David Thoreau
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 1/17/2008 Posts: 4,039
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Good Morning all you fellow travelers, pilgrims.........May this post find all of you well!
Today being Wednesday, the middle of the week, To those of us who are of a mind to, Thank God for His mercy!
I've mentioned before that the wording of the Ten Commandments can not be improved upon. In the opinion of certain attorneys, they say what they say perfectly.
Our Creator has given us, in a few short words, his ideal for his children. Observing and respecting these words brings its' reward.
Fellowship and communion with our God and Creator.
The One who gave us all we have. Family, abilities, possessions, prospects. These are all gifts from a loving Creator.
Jesus says if you love me keep my commandments. After all obedience is an act of love.
Acts 5:
29 ¶Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
The TC is a guide. Helps us focus, gives us a track to run on.
Through Christ we can live in complete harmony with our Creator, and receive everlasting life.
Wednesday July 28
Law and Faith
As we saw yesterday, Paul showed that God’s dealings with Abraham proved that salvation came through the promise of grace and not through law.
Therefore, if the Jews wished to be saved, they would have to abandon trust in their works for salvation and accept the Abrahamic promise, now fulfilled in the coming of the Messiah. It’s the same, really, for everyone, Jew or Gentile, who thinks that their “good” deeds are all that it takes to make them right with God.
“The principle that man can save himself by his own works lay at the foundation of every heathen religion. . . . Wherever it is held, men have no barrier against sin.”—Ellen G. White, The Desire of Ages, pp. 35, 36. What does this mean? Why does the idea that we can save ourselves through our works leave us so open to sin?
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How did Paul explain the relationship between law and faith in Galatians? Gal. 3:21–23.
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If there had been a law that could impart life, it certainly would have been God’s law. And yet, Paul says that no law, not even God’s, can give life, because all have violated that law, and so all are con- demned by it.
But the promise of faith, more fully revealed through Christ, frees all who believe from being “under the law”; that is, from being con- demned and burdened by trying to earn salvation through it. The law becomes a burden when it’s presented without faith, without grace— because without faith, without grace, without the righteousness that comes by faith, being under the law means being under the burden and the condemnation of sin.
How central is righteousness by faith to your walk with God? That is, what can you do to make sure it doesn’t get blurred by other aspects of truth to the point where you lose sight of this crucial teaching? After all, what good are these other teachings without this one?
Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy law.
Ps 119:136
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,985
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TerryD wrote:stevelundgren wrote:stevelundgren wrote:TerryD wrote:The law is more than the ten commandments? When these verses refer to those under the law, they are the ones following Jewish religion. I'm in partial agreement.
The Ten Commandments are part of the law. A subset of all the laws in the old covenant.
They are farther reaching than just having to do with following Jewish religion.
Those not under grace will be judged by the law. (No thanks!) So you see grace in this situation being defined as "thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward"?
Reward for obayng the ten cammandments or repenting if you don't, yes. So to you, grace is to be judged by the law but found righteous? Merited favor.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 1/7/2010 Posts: 4,072 Location: WI
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stevelundgren wrote:TerryD wrote:stevelundgren wrote:stevelundgren wrote:TerryD wrote:The law is more than the ten commandments? When these verses refer to those under the law, they are the ones following Jewish religion. I'm in partial agreement.
The Ten Commandments are part of the law. A subset of all the laws in the old covenant.
They are farther reaching than just having to do with following Jewish religion.
Those not under grace will be judged by the law. (No thanks!) So you see grace in this situation being defined as "thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward"?
Reward for obayng the ten cammandments or repenting if you don't, yes. So to you, grace is to be judged by the law but found righteous? Merited favor.
?"If a man loses pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music in which he hears, however measured, or far away.” Henry David Thoreau
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,985
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TerryD wrote:stevelundgren wrote:TerryD wrote:stevelundgren wrote:stevelundgren wrote:TerryD wrote:The law is more than the ten commandments? When these verses refer to those under the law, they are the ones following Jewish religion. I'm in partial agreement.
The Ten Commandments are part of the law. A subset of all the laws in the old covenant.
They are farther reaching than just having to do with following Jewish religion.
Those not under grace will be judged by the law. (No thanks!) So you see grace in this situation being defined as "thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward"?
Reward for obayng the ten cammandments or repenting if you don't, yes. So to you, grace is to be judged by the law but found righteous? Merited favor. ? If Grace is a reward for obeying the law then it is merited - not unmerited. If so, you have to earn it.
Isaiah 26:10 NIV
Though grace is shown to the wicked, they do not learn righteousness; even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil and regard not the majesty of the LORD.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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