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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 1/7/2010 Posts: 4,072 Location: WI
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stevelundgren wrote:TerryD wrote:stevelundgren wrote:TerryD wrote:stevelundgren wrote:stevelundgren wrote:TerryD wrote:The law is more than the ten commandments? When these verses refer to those under the law, they are the ones following Jewish religion. I'm in partial agreement.
The Ten Commandments are part of the law. A subset of all the laws in the old covenant.
They are farther reaching than just having to do with following Jewish religion.
Those not under grace will be judged by the law. (No thanks!) So you see grace in this situation being defined as "thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward"?
Reward for obayng the ten cammandments or repenting if you don't, yes. So to you, grace is to be judged by the law but found righteous? Merited favor. ? If Grace is a reward for obeying the law then it is merited - not unmerited. If so, you have to earn it.
Isaiah 26:10 NIV
Though grace is shown to the wicked, they do not learn righteousness; even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil and regard not the majesty of the LORD.
Old Testament, different usage. #2 In fact in a real Bible it says Favor. 10 Let favor be showed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness will he deal wrongfully, and will not behold the majesty of Jehovah. "If a man loses pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music in which he hears, however measured, or far away.” Henry David Thoreau
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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 1/17/2008 Posts: 4,039
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Good Morning America! Today is Thursday! The Fifth day of the week!
Gen 1:20Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.”
21So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
22And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.”
23So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
And God spoke, and it was done! By the Word of His mouth were the heavens made.......
And God spoke, and thundered down from Mt. Sinai, those Ten Commandments
The People Afraid of God's Presence Ex 20:
18Now all the people witnessed the thunderings, the lightning flashes, the sound of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood afar off.
19Then they said to Moses, “You speak with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die.”
So who would treat lightly those Ten Commandments? You? Me?
The Fourth Commandment is specific in its' wording:
Ex 20:
8“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.
11For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
As todays' lesson brings out, "for by the law is the knowledge of sin"...........Rom 3:20
WHO CHANGED THE
SABBATH SATURDAY TO SUNDAY?
Roman Catholic: No such law in the Bible "Nowhere in the bible do we find that Jesus or the apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is, the Seventh day of the week, Saturday. Today, all Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the [Roman] church outside the Bible." Catholic Virginian, Oct. 3, 1947
"You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctified." James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers (1917 ed.), pp.72,73
"If protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on the Sabbath Day, that is Saturday. In keeping Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church." Albert Smith, chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the cardinal in a letter of Feb. 10, 1920.
"Have you not any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?"
"Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her, she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the Seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority" Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism 3rd ed. p. 174
Thursday July 29
The Law and Sin
We often hear folk say that in the New Covenant the law has been abolished and then they proceed to quote texts that they believe prove that point.
The logic behind that statement, however, isn’t quite sound, nor is the theology.
Read 1 John 2:3–6, 3:4, and Romans 3:20. What do these texts tell us about the relationship between law and sin?
A few hundred years ago, Irish writer Jonathan Swift wrote, “But will any man say that if the words drinking, cheating, lying, steal- ing were by Act of Parliament ejected out of the English tongue and dictionaries, we should all awake next morning temperate, honest and just, and lovers of truth? Is this a fair consequence?”—Jonathan Swift, A Modest Proposal and Other Satires (New York: Prometheus Books, 1995), p. 205.
In the same way, if God’s law has been abolished, then why are lying, murder, and stealing still sinful or wrong? If God’s law has been changed, the definition of sin must be changed, too. Or if God’s law was done away with, sin must be, as well, and who believes that? (See also 1 John 1:7–10; James 1:14, 15.)
In the New Testament, both the law and the gospel appear. The law shows what sin is; the gospel points to the remedy for that sin, which is the death and resurrection of Jesus. If there is no law, there is no sin, and so what are we saved from? Only in the context of the law, and its continued validity, does the gospel make sense.
We often hear that the Cross nullified the law. That’s rather ironic, because the Cross shows that the law can’t be abrogated or changed. If God didn’t abrogate or even change the law before Christ died on the cross, why do it after? Why not get rid of the law after humanity sinned and thus spare humanity the legal punishment that violation of the law brings? That way, Jesus never would have had to die. Jesus’ death shows that if the law could have been changed or abrogated, that should have been done before, not after, the Cross. Thus, nothing shows the contin- ued validity of the law more than does the death of Jesus, a death that occurred precisely because the law couldn’t be changed. If the law could have been changed to meet us in our fallen condition, wouldn’t that have been a better solution to the problem of sin than Jesus having to die?
If there were no divine law against adultery, would the act cause any less pain and hurt than it does now to those who are victims of it? How does your answer help you understand why God’s law is still in effect? What has been your own experience with the consequences of violating God’s law?
Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy law.
Ps 119:136
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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,985
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TerryD wrote:stevelundgren wrote:If Grace is a reward for obeying the law then it is merited - not unmerited. If so, you have to earn it.
Isaiah 26:10 NIV
Though grace is shown to the wicked, they do not learn righteousness; even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil and regard not the majesty of the LORD.
Old Testament, different usage. #2 In fact in a real Bible it says Favor. 10 Let favor be showed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness will he deal wrongfully, and will not behold the majesty of Jehovah. That helps to prove my point.
Unmerited favor is grace.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,985
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paulwhut wrote:... So who would treat lightly those Ten Commandments? You? Me? ... Certainly not anyone who was brought out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
Specifically an Israelite in the wilderness after the exodus.
Not to those for who it was written.
It would be a sign just between them and God for the generations to come.
Exodus 31:13 NIV
"Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,985
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paulwhut wrote:... Thursday July 29
The Law and Sin
We often hear folk say that in the New Covenant the law has been abolished and then they proceed to quote texts that they believe prove that point.
The logic behind that statement, however, isn’t quite sound, nor is the theology... Hmm...
Looks pretty clear to me.
Ephesians 2:14-16 NIV
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.
Romans 4:13-15 NIV
It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
Galatians 2:16, 21 NIV
know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified...
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
Hebrews 8:13 NIV
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member 
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Message was deleted by User.
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,985
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For all you King James fans.
Galatians 2:21 KJV
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 1/7/2010 Posts: 4,072 Location: WI
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stevelundgren wrote:TerryD wrote:stevelundgren wrote:If Grace is a reward for obeying the law then it is merited - not unmerited. If so, you have to earn it.
Isaiah 26:10 NIV
Though grace is shown to the wicked, they do not learn righteousness; even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil and regard not the majesty of the LORD.
Old Testament, different usage. #2 In fact in a real Bible it says Favor. 10 Let favor be showed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness will he deal wrongfully, and will not behold the majesty of Jehovah. That helps to prove my point.
Unmerited favor is grace.
In that instance it is. "If a man loses pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music in which he hears, however measured, or far away.” Henry David Thoreau
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 1/7/2010 Posts: 4,072 Location: WI
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stevelundgren wrote:paulwhut wrote:... Thursday July 29
The Law and Sin
We often hear folk say that in the New Covenant the law has been abolished and then they proceed to quote texts that they believe prove that point.
The logic behind that statement, however, isn’t quite sound, nor is the theology... Hmm...
Looks pretty clear to me.
Ephesians 2:14-16 NIV
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.
Romans 4:13-15 NIV
It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
Galatians 2:16, 21 NIV
know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified...
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
Hebrews 8:13 NIV
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
When the ten commandments disappear your point may be correct. As of now, they are still in every Bible. "If a man loses pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music in which he hears, however measured, or far away.” Henry David Thoreau
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 1/7/2010 Posts: 4,072 Location: WI
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stevelundgren wrote:For all you King James fans.
Galatians 2:21 KJV
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Christ died to change one part of the law, not to begin a whole new religion. "If a man loses pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music in which he hears, however measured, or far away.” Henry David Thoreau
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,985
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TerryD wrote:When the ten commandments disappear your point may be correct. As of now, they are still in every Bible. The fact that the scriptures I posted above are in the Bible validates my point.
I do not wish for the Ten Commandments to be removed from the Bible.
Only that folks would view them in the proper perspective.
There is absolutely no call to give them a prominence that the new testament does not.
Especially in regards to the jewish sabbath.
Consider this:
- The title Ten Commandments does not even appear in the new testament.
- The Ten Commandments, as such, are not listed in the new testament.
- Failure to observe the sabbath is not listed as a sin.
- The apostle Paul's letter to gentiles makes no mention of the Ten Commandments.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,985
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TerryD wrote:stevelundgren wrote:For all you King James fans.
Galatians 2:21 KJV
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Christ died to change one part of the law, not to begin a whole new religion. According to whom?
Did Jesus say that?
Do any of the gospel writers confirm what you are saying?
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 4/21/2010 Posts: 1,457 Location: Michigan
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TerryD wrote:stevelundgren wrote:TerryD wrote:The law is more than the ten commandments? When these verses refer to those under the law, they are the ones following Jewish religion. I'm in partial agreement.
The Ten Commandments are part of the law. A subset of all the laws in the old covenant.
They are farther reaching than just having to do with following Jewish religion.
Those not under grace will be judged by the law. (No thanks!)
If you are Jewish and don't believe Jesus is the Messiah you have to seek forgiveness in the old way. If you believe Jesus is the Messiah you do it the new way. The 10 commandments are the manual for not needing forgiveness. That is what repentence is all about! Repentence of what? Breaking the Law, breaking the Law. Grace was given when Christ died for us even though we were sinners and did not deserve anythng but death. Before Christ died we were all going to recieve the death penalty. Now we can repent and be forgiven of breaking the Law. We still have to try and keep the Law and be overcomers(repent daily) until Christ returns and we will then keep the law perfectly.For more info:CLICK HERECOG Writer LinkIf you open your bible be led by the Holy spirit.
Let God own you.
Do not believe doctrines of men.
Prove all things for yourself.
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 4/21/2010 Posts: 1,457 Location: Michigan
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stevelundgren wrote:TerryD wrote:When the ten commandments disappear your point may be correct. As of now, they are still in every Bible. The fact that the scriptures I posted above are in the Bible validates my point.
I do not wish for the Ten Commandments to be removed from the Bible.
Only that folks would view them in the proper perspective.
There is absolutely no call to give them a prominence that the new testament does not.
Especially in regards to the jewish sabbath.
Consider this:
- The title Ten Commandments does not even appear in the new testament.
- The Ten Commandments, as such, are not listed in the new testament.
- Failure to observe the sabbath is not listed as a sin.
- The apostle Paul's letter to gentiles makes no mention of the Ten Commandments.
There is absolutely no call to give them a prominence that the new testament does not.
Actually the New Testament mentions all of the Ten commandments throughout. They are not all lumped together in one place that was already done in the old testament. The Bible is to be viewed as a whole. Man should live by every word of God. Not just the New Testament.
Especially in regards to the jewish sabbath.
The Sabbath was never made only for the Jews. The Sabbath(seventh day) was created at the beginning before there were jews. Christ made that day different from all the other six by sanctifying it(setting it apart for a holy use)Only God can make anything Holy. (Ex.20:8-11)
Also Christ says that the sabbath was made for man All mankind(not just the jewish people)and not man for the sabbath. Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath. In this statement Christ claims to be--not the destroyer--but the Lord of the Sabbath. (Matt.2:27-28)
In His human life Jesus kept the Sabbath, and many verses in the four Gospels are devoted to His instructions to the disciples in how it should be kept, and in freeing it from the traditions that the Jews had added.
[color=orange] Failure to observe the sabbath is not listed as a sin.Actually what is the definition of sin? Despite the contradictory ideas and generalizations of organized religious denominations, your Bible clearly states: Sin is the transgression of the Law(1john 3:4) Sin is breaking God's spiritual law--The Ten Commandments. That is definitely and specifically what sin is! The fourth commandment says to remember the Sabbath day and to keep it holy. This command is, in its wording, the longest of any of the ten. It is placed, protectievely as it were, in the very midst of the Ten. Yet,sad to say, it is the one command about which men "reason" and argue most, and which they would most quickly tear apart and try to separate from the rest of God's law. Notice that it starts out with "remember" This very statement proves that the Sabbath command was already understood by God's chosen people and that, as a part of His covenant God was reminding them of a spiritual command of which they already had knowledge! Remember that the true Christians, the "little flock" of Jesus, are described as those "who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."(Rev.12:17) The end of the matter, all having been heard:fear God, and keep His commandments: for this isthe whole man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13,Moffat) For more info:CLICK HERECOG Writer LinkIf you open your bible be led by the Holy spirit.
Let God own you.
Do not believe doctrines of men.
Prove all things for yourself.
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,985
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sumr0luv wrote:... Sin is breaking God's spiritual law--The Ten Commandments. That is definitely and specifically what sin is! ... Please present scripture that says:
- God's spiritual law is definitely and specifically the Ten Commandments.
- Sin is definitely and specifically breaking the Ten Commandments.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,985
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sumr0luv wrote:... Notice that it starts out with "remember" This very statement proves that the Sabbath command was already understood by God's chosen people and that, as a part of His covenant God was reminding them of a spiritual command of which they already had knowledge! ... No it doesn't.
Do you make this stuff up as you go along???
The word "remember" means to observe on a regular basis. Not bring to mind. As in remembrance.
The SDA loves to play on that one saying the command God wants to remember we promptly forget. (Ha, ha.)
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 4/21/2010 Posts: 1,457 Location: Michigan
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stevelundgren wrote:sumr0luv wrote:... Sin is breaking God's spiritual law--The Ten Commandments. That is definitely and specifically what sin is! ... Please present scripture that says:
- God's spiritual law is definitely and specifically the Ten Commandments.
- Sin is definitely and specifically breaking the Ten Commandments.
Among Jesus' final words in the New Testament (recorded in the last chapter of the book of Revelation), He said: "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life..." (Rev. 22:14).
And the Apostle Paul speaking of the Tenth commandment said:
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good" (Rom. 7:12). What law? The law that says "Thou shalt not covet" (verse 7). And it is this law that Paul calls "spiritual" (verse 14) — and spiritual things are eternal!
All the commandments are spiritual! God didn't make one spiritual and leave the others out. That would make no sense and would be ridiculous.
Sin is the transgression of the Law(1john 3:4) For more info:CLICK HERECOG Writer LinkIf you open your bible be led by the Holy spirit.
Let God own you.
Do not believe doctrines of men.
Prove all things for yourself.
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 4/21/2010 Posts: 1,457 Location: Michigan
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stevelundgren wrote:sumr0luv wrote:... Notice that it starts out with "remember" This very statement proves that the Sabbath command was already understood by God's chosen people and that, as a part of His covenant God was reminding them of a spiritual command of which they already had knowledge! ... No it doesn't.
Do you make this stuff up as you go along???
The word "remember" means to observe on a regular basis. Not bring to mind. As in remembrance.
The SDA loves to play on that one saying the command God wants to remember we promptly forget. (Ha, ha.)
This is the dictionary meaning: re·mem·ber /rɪˈmɛmbər/ Show Spelled[ri-mem-ber] Show IPA –verb (used with object) 1. to recall to the mind by an act or effort of memory; think of again: I'll try to remember the exact date. 2. to retain in the memory; keep in mind; remain aware of: Remember your appointment with the dentist. 3. to have (something) come into the mind again: I just remembered that it's your birthday today. This seems to say to remember you have to have for knowledge of something in order to have a rememberance of it For more info:CLICK HERECOG Writer LinkIf you open your bible be led by the Holy spirit.
Let God own you.
Do not believe doctrines of men.
Prove all things for yourself.
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 4/21/2010 Posts: 1,457 Location: Michigan
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TerryD wrote:stevelundgren wrote:TerryD wrote:I'm saying you always have to obey the law in order to be under grace. If you break the law, you have to repent to get back into god's grace. You do not have to sacrifice a lamb. Jesus took the place of the lamb. Terry,
Grace is defined as unmerited favor.
If you have to obey the old testament law to be under grace, that would mean it is merited. Right?
It doesn't mean we have a license to sin, but one is either under grace or not. It doesn't change from moment to moment.
From Strong's 1) grace a) that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech 2) good will, loving-kindness, favour a) of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues 3) what is due to grace a) the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace b) the token or proof of grace, benefit 1) a gift of grace 2) benefit, bounty 4) thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward I would choose 4. The act of God the Father giving His sinless son for us to have forgiveness of sins is the very grace spoken of in the Bible. We were sinners and were sinning. We had not done anything to merit Christ's sacrifice!
We are still sinners and the law shows us that. But now with the grace of God we can be forgiven of the transgression the law! So do we keep breaking the law (Ten commandments)No! God forbid.
We should keep the law and now in spirit and in truth. Now the law is no longer against us. The law no longer means a death penalty. Christ paid the price! Repent! Repent of what? Sin, the transgression of the law. And keep repenting!
You will not do it perfectly but you will get better at following God. By their fruits you shall know them.For more info:CLICK HERECOG Writer LinkIf you open your bible be led by the Holy spirit.
Let God own you.
Do not believe doctrines of men.
Prove all things for yourself.
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,985
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sumr0luv wrote:stevelundgren wrote:sumr0luv wrote:... Notice that it starts out with "remember" This very statement proves that the Sabbath command was already understood by God's chosen people and that, as a part of His covenant God was reminding them of a spiritual command of which they already had knowledge! ... No it doesn't.
Do you make this stuff up as you go along???
The word "remember" means to observe on a regular basis. Not bring to mind. As in remembrance.
The SDA loves to play on that one saying the command God wants to remember we promptly forget. (Ha, ha.)
This is the dictionary meaning: re·mem·ber /rɪˈmɛmbər/ Show Spelled[ri-mem-ber] Show IPA –verb (used with object) 1. to recall to the mind by an act or effort of memory; think of again: I'll try to remember the exact date. 2. to retain in the memory; keep in mind; remain aware of: Remember your appointment with the dentist. 3. to have (something) come into the mind again: I just remembered that it's your birthday today. This seems to say to remember you have to have for knowledge of something in order to have a rememberance of it I think it's more like "be mindful of", than "have foreknowledge of". Which would work better in the verse?
1) Be mindful of the sabbath day to keep it holy.
- Keep in mind the sabbath day to keep it holy.
- Remain aware of the sabbath day to keep it holy.
- Regularly observe the sabbath day to keep it holy.
2) Have foreknowledge of the sabbath day to keep it holy. ???
- Recall to the mind the sabbath day to keep it holy. ???
- Have the sabbath day come into the mind again to keep it holy. ???\
- Bring to memory the sabbath day to keep it holy. ???
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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