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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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Here are the results for a search on the exact phrase "works of the law" in the KJV.
Romans 9:32
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.
For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ,
even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ,
and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 3:2
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:5
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you,
doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written,
Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 1/4/2010 Posts: 3,100 Location: on a hill in the hollow
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I don't want to mess up your intended issue, but if you limit the search to just "works," it is still fairly limited. In the whole NIV, "works" is used 85 times and the first 43 times are in the Old Testament..... with half of the 85 are in the New Testament.
If the number of uses of a particular word means anything, it seems that defining "works" is, in one way or another, noteworthy. Exactly what constitutes the "work" we are to do is explained or an example given more than 40 times..... the New Testament makes a clear distinction between works of the law and works of the heart and Spirit.
So in any case, I thought listing all of the times works is used could make a good reference point. 44.John 5:20
For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed.
45.John 5:36
“I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me.
46.John 6:28
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
47.John 7:3
Jesus’ brothers said to him, “Leave Galilee and go to Judea, so that your disciples there may see the works you do.
48.John 7:7
The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that its works are evil.
49.John 8:41
You are doing the works of your own father.” “We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”
50.John 9:3
“Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
51.John 9:4
As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work.
52.John 10:25
Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me,
53.John 10:32
but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
54.John 10:37
Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.
55.John 10:38
But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
56.John 14:11
Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.
57.John 14:12
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
58.John 15:24
If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.
59.Romans 3:20
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
60.Romans 3:27
Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.
61.Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
62.Romans 4:2
If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.
63.Romans 4:4
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
64.Romans 4:6
David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
65.Romans 8:28
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
66.Romans 9:12
not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
67.Romans 9:32
Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.
68.Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
69.Romans 16:23
Gaius, whose hospitality I and the whole church here enjoy, sends you his greetings. Erastus, who is the city’s director of public works, and our brother Quartus send you their greetings.
70.Galatians 2:16
know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
71.Galatians 3:1
[ Faith or Works of the Law ] You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
72.Galatians 3:2
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
)
73.Galatians 3:5
So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?
74.Galatians 3:10
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”
75.Galatians 5:9
“A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.”
76.Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
77.Ephesians 2:9
not by works, so that no one can boast.
78.Ephesians 2:10
For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
79.Ephesians 4:12
to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up
80.Philippians 2:13
for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
81.Colossians 1:29
To this end I strenuously contend with all the energy Christ so powerfully works in me.
82.2 Thessalonians 2:9
The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie,
83.Hebrews 4:3
Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, “So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’” And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world.
84.Hebrews 4:4
For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.”
85.Hebrews 4:10
for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his.
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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Intangible wrote:I don't want to mess up your intended issue, but if you limit the search to just "works," it is still fairly limited. In the whole NIV, "works" is used 85 times and the first 43 times are in the Old Testament..... with half of the 85 are in the New Testament.
If the number of uses of a particular word means anything, it seems that defining "works" is, in one way or another, noteworthy. Exactly what constitutes the "work" we are to do is explained or an example given more than 40 times..... the New Testament makes a clear distinction between works of the law and works of the heart and Spirit.
So in any case, I thought listing all of the times works is used could make a good reference point. ... Yes. A thorough study of works as a general topic is a good idea and could occur here. I don't object.
(If that matters)
Although, it may make more sense to have a general topic with a general title.
This topic's title, "works of the law", is quite specific toward only ONE aspect of works.
I agree that it would be a good topic though. It would clarify our position on the topic.
Since the sabbatarians are quick to accuse anyone that doesn't "follow" the TCs as
giving license to everything the TCs describe.
My aim initially was to point out, for our sabbatarian friends, that their claim of righteousness
through works of the law has no biblical basis.
In fact in these scriptures the Bible says the opposite is true.
"... a man is not justified by the works of the law..." - Galatians 2:16
"... as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse..." - Galatians 3:10
And lest they claim that "the works of law" are the traditions of men...
It is defined below as "all things which are written in the book of the law".
Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written,
Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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Same scriptures as the lead post, but from the NIV.
Romans 9:32
Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works.
They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.”
Galatians 2:16
know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.
So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ
and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
Galatians 3:2
I would like to learn just one thing from you:
Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?
Galatians 3:5
Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law,
or because you believe what you heard?
Galatians 3:10
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written:
“Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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These six questions are still valid today. How will you answer?
Galatians 3:1-14
Faith or Observance of the Law?
You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you?
Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you:
Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?
3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?
4 Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing?
5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law,
or because you believe what you heard?
6 Consider Abraham: “He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
7 Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.
8 The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith,
and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”
9 So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written:
“Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”
11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.”
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us,
for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”
14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles
through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 2/25/2011
Posts: 2,958
Location: TX
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Ja.2:20, "But wilt thou know, o vain man, that faith without works is dead?" Rev.22:12, "And, behold I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Rev.22:14, "Blessed are they that do His Commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." http://dedication.www3.5...com/commandmentsNT.html
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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Check this out.
The remnant is chosen by grace, not works.
You are in the wrong church.
Romans 11:5-6
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 2/25/2011
Posts: 2,958
Location: TX
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stevelundgren wrote:
Check this out.
The remnant is chosen by grace, not works.
You are in the wrong church.
Romans 11:5-6
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
I'll go with Christ's Rev.22:12 as He stated!
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 1/4/2010 Posts: 3,100 Location: on a hill in the hollow
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Sonny35 wrote:Ja.2:20, "But wilt thou know, o vain man, that faith without works is dead?" Rev.22:12, "And, behold I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Rev.22:14, "Blessed are they that do His Commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." http://dedication.www3.5...com/commandmentsNT.html
Your problem stems from your understanding of "works" and what that means. It is true that proclaimed faith without works of love is empty and void. It doesn't matter how perfectly you adhere to the Ten Commandments, they can not teach you love or make you more righteous. The only thing that matters is faith expressed through love.
"Work" does not mean obeying the Law, it means applying God's purpose in our life. We are obligated to follow the law, but faith expressed with love is not always as easy. To truly walk in the way of Jesus, to judge no one by appearance, to lend a hand to one that has fallen without regard to skin color or religion, no regard for their wealth of lack of wealth, to truly love our neighbor as Jesus has loved us, this is our ultimate "work" to which we can aspire.
The commandments of YHWH and His desires for man extend well beyond what can be expressed in ten rudimentary laws or commands which is why God has given the Torah, and ultimately, His only begotten Son. God knows the hearts of men, He created us and He knows us inside out. He knows how stubborn we can be so He set examples through the patriarchs and in the Torah, He gave us prophesy, He told us of ourselves and told us of our need for a Messiah and then sent His only begotten Son to save us from ourselves. THIS type of love cannot be expressed with ten laws!Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 1/7/2010 Posts: 4,073 Location: WI
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stevelundgren wrote:
Check this out.
The remnant is chosen by grace, not works.
You are in the wrong church.
Romans 11:5-6
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
Notice, Sonny35's quotes are from the real disciples. yours are from Paul."If a man loses pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music in which he hears, however measured, or far away.” Henry David Thoreau
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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Sonny35 wrote:stevelundgren wrote:
Check this out.
The remnant is chosen by grace, not works.
You are in the wrong church.
Romans 11:5-6
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
I'll go with Christ's Rev.22:12 as He stated! Go with?
So you are rejecting Romans 11:5-6 ???
This is an interesting development.
So much for the sabbatarian "whole Bible" view.
Nice work.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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TerryD wrote:stevelundgren wrote:
Check this out.
The remnant is chosen by grace, not works.
You are in the wrong church.
Romans 11:5-6
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
Notice, Sonny35's quotes are from the real disciples. yours are from Paul. Real disciples?
Why do you put limitations on who is allowed to be a disciple? Jesus didn't.
Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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Intangible wrote:Sonny35 wrote:Ja.2:20, "But wilt thou know, o vain man, that faith without works is dead?"
Rev.22:12, "And, behold I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be."
Rev.22:14, "Blessed are they that do His Commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." ... Your problem stems from your understanding of "works" and what that means. It is true that proclaimed faith without works of love is empty and void. It doesn't matter how perfectly you adhere to the Ten Commandments, they can not teach you love or make you more righteous. The only thing that matters is faith expressed through love.
"Work" does not mean obeying the Law, it means applying God's purpose in our life. We are obligated to follow the law, but faith expressed with love is not always as easy. To truly walk in the way of Jesus, to judge no one by appearance, to lend a hand to one that has fallen without regard to skin color or religion, no regard for their wealth of lack of wealth, to truly love our neighbor as Jesus has loved us, this is our ultimate "work" to which we can aspire.
The commandments of YHWH and His desires for man extend well beyond what can be expressed in ten rudimentary laws or commands which is why God has given the Torah, and ultimately, His only begotten Son. God knows the hearts of men, He created us and He knows us inside out. He knows how stubborn we can be so He set examples through the patriarchs and in the Torah, He gave us prophesy, He told us of ourselves and told us of our need for a Messiah and then sent His only begotten Son to save us from ourselves. THIS type of love cannot be expressed with ten laws! BRAVO!!!!!!
That's a great response.
I would also like to explore works as direct revelation. (new term?)
I see this in how Jesus flowed with what God was instructing Him to do on a daily basis and also in the "works prepared in advance" spoken of in Ephesians chapter 2. See below.
An exploration of logos and rhrema would be good as well.
Just not sure if this is the right topic title to explore this under.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works,
which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 1/7/2010 Posts: 4,073 Location: WI
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stevelundgren wrote:TerryD wrote:stevelundgren wrote:
Check this out.
The remnant is chosen by grace, not works.
You are in the wrong church.
Romans 11:5-6
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
Notice, Sonny35's quotes are from the real disciples. yours are from Paul. Real disciples?
Why do you put limitations on who is allowed to be a disciple? Jesus didn't.
Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
My limitation is if they teach what God and Jesus taught.
Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews."If a man loses pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music in which he hears, however measured, or far away.” Henry David Thoreau
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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TerryD wrote:stevelundgren wrote:TerryD wrote:stevelundgren wrote:
Check this out.
The remnant is chosen by grace, not works.
You are in the wrong church.
Romans 11:5-6
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
Notice, Sonny35's quotes are from the real disciples. yours are from Paul. Real disciples?
Why do you put limitations on who is allowed to be a disciple? Jesus didn't.
Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, My limitation is if they teach what God and Jesus taught.
Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. What a twisted, cherry-picked view.
Deuteronomy 4:2 was addressed specifically to Israel. (define the "you" and "ye" )
Why would you superimpose this on the new testament?
"It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt..." - Hebrews 8:9
John 4:22 was addressed to the Samaritans. (define "ye" )
A little context would help.
Salvation is FROM the Jews, not BEING Jewish.
Jesus also spoke of the "time coming".
What "kind of worshipers" does the Father seek?
John 4:20-24
Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that
the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”
Jesus declared, “Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father
neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know;
we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming
and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth,
for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit,
and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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In this passage the adverse effects of the judaizers are challenged.
The judaizers are referred to in verse 12 as the circumcision group.
Galatians 2:11-21
Paul Opposes Peter
When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong.
12 Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived,
he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who
belonged to the circumcision group.
13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel,
I said to Peter in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew.
How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
15 “We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’
16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.
So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith
in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
17 “If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners,
does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not!
18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker.
19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God.
20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law,
Christ died for nothing!”
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 1/7/2010 Posts: 4,073 Location: WI
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stevelundgren wrote:
In this passage the adverse effects of the judaizers are challenged.
The judaizers are referred to in verse 12 as the circumcision group.
Galatians 2:11-21
Paul Opposes Peter
When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong.
12 Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived,
he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who
belonged to the circumcision group.
13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel,
I said to Peter in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew.
How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
15 “We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’
16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.
So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith
in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
17 “If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners,
does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not!
18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker.
19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God.
20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law,
Christ died for nothing!”
That's my argument. Paul went against the appointed rock on which Christ's church was built. He contradicted Christ, God and the real apostles on many ocasions."If a man loses pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music in which he hears, however measured, or far away.” Henry David Thoreau
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 1/7/2010 Posts: 4,073 Location: WI
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stevelundgren wrote:TerryD wrote:stevelundgren wrote:TerryD wrote:stevelundgren wrote:
Check this out.
The remnant is chosen by grace, not works.
You are in the wrong church.
Romans 11:5-6
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
Notice, Sonny35's quotes are from the real disciples. yours are from Paul. Real disciples?
Why do you put limitations on who is allowed to be a disciple? Jesus didn't.
Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, My limitation is if they teach what God and Jesus taught.
Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. What a twisted, cherry-picked view.
Deuteronomy 4:2 was addressed specifically to Israel. (define the "you" and "ye" )
Why would you superimpose this on the new testament?
"It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt..." - Hebrews 8:9
John 4:22 was addressed to the Samaritans. (define "ye" )
A little context would help.
Salvation is FROM the Jews, not BEING Jewish.
Jesus also spoke of the "time coming".
What "kind of worshipers" does the Father seek?
John 4:20-24
Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that
the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”
Jesus declared, “Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father
neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know;
we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming
and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth,
for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit,
and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”
Almost all of Christ's followers were Jews."If a man loses pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music in which he hears, however measured, or far away.” Henry David Thoreau
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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TerryD wrote:That's my argument. Paul went against the appointed rock on which Christ's church was built. He contradicted Christ, God and the real apostles on many ocasions. Peter was NOT "the appointed rock on which Christ's church was built."
Although that is the Catholic view. It is not accurate.
In fact, it would be ridiculous for Jesus to build His church on a fallible human.
Peter had the right answer to Christ's question.
Jesus used a word play to make a point.
The church wouod be built on the fact that Jesus was the Christ, not on Peter.
Matthew 16:13-20
Peter’s Confession of Christ
When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[f] loosed in heaven.”
20 Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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TerryD wrote:Almost all of Christ's followers were Jews.
John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also.
They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
Acts 9:15
But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name
before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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