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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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Discussion of this subject is scattered around several topics.
This is a place to gather all the evidence on the subject for review in one place.
The question to be addressed here is:
What did Jesus teach through word and example concerning the sabbath?
And in a similar vein:
What were the Gospel writers directed to write on this subject? On what did they report?
What is the intended message about the sabbath from the Gospels?
What do they tell us? What don't they tell us?
Any qualifying answers should be accompanied by the scriptural proof as validating support.
All unsupported claims will be rejected as unbiblical.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 9/9/2008 Posts: 2,981
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This is a good idea Steve! I do have a request though before I post some other scriptures that come to mind. I hope this doesn't mess up or interfere with your intentions for this thread. If it does then disregard, we can cover this later if you want.
Could you comment on the following scriptures, what is your interpretation of Hebrews 4 concerning the Sabbath Rest for Gods people of today. Any other takers also welcome to post your thoughts.
Hebrews 4:1-11
A Sabbath-Rest for the People of God
1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.[a] 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”[b]
And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.”[c] 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”
6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”[d]
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,[e] just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
~ Insults Should Be Written In Sand ~ Compliments Should Be Carved In Stone ~
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Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 2/25/2011
Posts: 2,958
Location: TX
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stevelundgren wrote:
Discussion of this subject is scattered around several topics.
This is a place to gather all the evidence on the subject for review in one place.
The question to be addressed here is:
What did Jesus teach through word and example concerning the sabbath?
And in a similar vein:
What were the Gospel writers directed to write on this subject? On what did they report?
What is the intended message about the sabbath from the Gospels?
What do they tell us? What don't they tell us?
Any qualifying answers should be accompanied by the scriptural proof as validating support.
All unsupported claims will be rejected as unbiblical.
Let me ask you? Why should we expect that any claims for the keeping of the Sabbath Day not be rejected as unbiblical by you when you observe such UNBIBICAL traditions as the weekly 1st day sunday, Xmass and easter NOWHERE TO BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE??? If you were to except such claims would that not then stand AGAINST YOUR traditions??? Should we even dream you would do that???  No, there will be no Sabbath claims acceptable to you and to do so would be a waste of time.  All you doing is starting a new topic so as to play your juvenile circle game so no thanks, play with yourself.
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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sarge wrote:This is a good idea Steve! I do have a request though before I post some other scriptures that come to mind. I hope this doesn't mess up or interfere with your intentions for this thread. If it does then disregard, we can cover this later if you want.
Could you comment on the following scriptures, what is your interpretation of Hebrews 4 concerning the Sabbath Rest for Gods people of today. Any other takers also welcome to post your thoughts.
Hebrews 4:1-11
A Sabbath-Rest for the People of God
1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.[a] 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”[b]
And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.”[c] 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”
6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”[d]
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,[e] just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
That's a good question.
Slightly out of scope, but let's go ahead and address it.
Hebrews 4 is sometimes used as a proof-text for sabbatarians claiming we are still under the sabbath.
My question: Where's the news?
If we were always under the sabbath obligation, then why state it this way? Why state it at all?
That general question aside, there is plenty of evidence that this does not mean we are under a sabbath requirement.
At least not in the sense of the law God gave to Israel through Moses.
Most notably, verses 7 and 10-11.
In verse 7 it says: "God again set a certain day..."
This is where the Apostle is going with this.
The whole thing is rather poetic.
He is playing off the analogy of the sabbath day as a day of rest and us resting from our own works in our trust of God.
Verse 10 says: "for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his."
The word "enter" is key to understanding this.
It's not talking about a day, but rather a state of being.
The Israelites entered the promised land once and there they remained.
We enter God's sabbath-rest by relying on him instead of our own works.
And there we should remain.
Much to be said about this. I'll leave it there for now.
Let me know if you have some comments or any specific questions. Thanks.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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Okay.
Where to begin...
Let's work through gospels in order from front to back and then take it from there.
I'll base the original study work on a biblical search for the word "sabbath" in the gospels.
I have visited all or most of these scriptures here on the forum at one time or another.
But you never now when you will discover something new.
Like this quote from the Apostle John saying Jesus was breaking the sabbath.
Evidently sabbath breaking is not a sin after all. Who knew?
John 5:18
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath,
but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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Here is the first appearance of the word sabbath in the gospels. (Matthew 12:1)
This is the reading. I will go through it section by section for my commentary.
Matthew 12:1-16
At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath.
His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them.
2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him,
“Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”
3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry?
4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—
which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests.
5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple
desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent?
6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here.
7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’*
you would not have condemned the innocent.
8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
9 Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue,
10 and a man with a shriveled hand was there.
Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus, they asked him,
“Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”
11 He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath,
will you not take hold of it and lift it out?
12 How much more valuable is a person than a sheep!
Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”
13 Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.”
So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other.
14 But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.
15 Aware of this, Jesus withdrew from that place.
A large crowd followed him, and he healed all who were ill.
16 He warned them not to tell others about him.
Footnotes:
* (Matthew 12:7) Hosea 6:6
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 9/9/2008 Posts: 2,981
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Hosea 6:4-7
4 “What can I do with you, Ephraim?
What can I do with you, Judah?
Your love is like the morning mist,
like the early dew that disappears.
5 Therefore I cut you in pieces with my prophets,
I killed you with the words of my mouth—
then my judgments go forth like the sun.
6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice,
and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.
7 As at Adam, they have broken the covenant;
they were unfaithful to me there.
~ Insults Should Be Written In Sand ~ Compliments Should Be Carved In Stone ~
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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Section by section with commentary.
Matthew 12:1- 8
At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath.
His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them.
2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him,
“Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”
3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry?
4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—
which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests.
5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple
desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent?
6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here.
7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’*
you would not have condemned the innocent.
8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Okay, this is interesting.
We were just looking at this same story in the gospel of Mark.
This rendering of the story in the gospel of Matthew has some interesting differences.
Jesus and the disciples are going through the grainfields.
The disciples are hungry. They pick and eat some grain, thus breaking sabbath law.
The Pharisees tell Jesus his "disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."
Jesus responds by pointing out that David and his companions ate the consecrated bread
"which was not lawful for them to do".
All this was found in Mark chapter 2.
We have some additional information about this story to examine.
Now Jesus brings another example for the Pharisees to consider.
He says, in the Law "the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple
desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent."
Now remember Jesus is saying this in response to the accusation that
his disciples are doing what is unlawful on the sabbath.
Jesus indicates that this desecration of the sabbath business is really
no big deal when he says this. Indicating he is greater than the temple. Which is true.
"I tell you that something greater than the temple is here." - verse 6
Then he refers back to the words spoken by the prophet Hosea.
"If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’
you would not have condemned the innocent." - verse 7
Meaning they should have exercised mercy rather than judgement concerning this sabbath breaking.
Why?
Because "the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." It's his call.
There is an important lesson here for our sabbatarian friends.
Should I spell it out, or is it obvious?
So far so good. And we are just getting started.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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Continued.
Matthew 12:9-12
9 Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue,
10 and a man with a shriveled hand was there.
Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus, they asked him,
“Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”
11 He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath,
will you not take hold of it and lift it out?
12 How much more valuable is a person than a sheep!
Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It's still the sabbath. So Jesus decides to go into the synagogue of those accusing him.
It says "he went into their synagogue". Hmm... "their" synagogue.
There was a man with a shriveled hand in the synagogue.
"They" could see where this was going. Jesus would likely heal the man.
So they set a trap, asking, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”
I find this both curious and sad.
Here is Jesus. God's power is on him to heal the sick, open blind eyes, help the lame to walk,
the deaf to hear, cast out demons, even raise the dead.
But all this is meaningless to the religious rulers. He's a sabbath breaker.
So they are busy building a case against him.
In response to the question about healing on the sabbath, he asks them a question.
"If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath,
will you not take hold of it and lift it out?"
Gotcha. The sabbath is a day of rest.
In no way can you pull a sheep out of a pit without breaking sabbath law.
A person is much more valuable than a sheep!
"Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”, Jesus says.
Again, sabbath law is secondary to the needs of humankind. Even animal kind.
Question: When someone criticizes me for going to church on Sunday, are they following Jesus or the Pharisees?
You can guess my vote.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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Continued.
Matthew 12:13-16
13 Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.”
So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other.
14 But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.
15 Aware of this, Jesus withdrew from that place.
A large crowd followed him, and he healed all who were ill.
16 He warned them not to tell others about him.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Okay, Jesus just explained to them that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.
Meaning, breaking the sabbath is fine if you are being obedient to God by making
better choices than hypocritically accusing others of sabbath breaking. Right?
I hope we have all learned a valuable lesson here.
What's next? Ah yes. The sabbath breaking healing.
Jesus tells the man, “Stretch out your hand.”
And his hand is restored. An instant and amazing miracle from God.
Everyone was thrilled. Well almost...
But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus. - verse 14
Not even curious, just sad.
They wanted to murder Jesus for his sabbath breaking.
Hmm... now that is curious. Aren't both sabbath and murder in the Ten Commandments?
This is what happens when all you care about is the sabbath.
Hello?
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 9/9/2008 Posts: 2,981
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Sonny35 wrote:Let me ask you? Why should we expect that any claims for the keeping of the Sabbath Day not be rejected as unbiblical by you when you observe such UNBIBICAL traditions as the weekly 1st day sunday, Xmass and easter NOWHERE TO BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE???
If you were to except such claims would that not then stand AGAINST YOUR traditions??? Should we even dream you would do that???
No, there will be no Sabbath claims acceptable to you and to do so would be a waste of time.
All you doing is starting a new topic so as to play your juvenile circle game so no thanks, play with yourself.
Good!
Steve, press on and post the truth and ignore the idiotic statements. Evidently it irritates the Sabbatarians when real Christians expose the truth concerning the Sabbath from the New Testament. He asked for New Testament scriptures so by all means continue and lets educate these mental megaliths as to exactly what the New Testament says about Sabbath observance in Jesus' time and how it applies to todays Real Christians.
Personally, I wouldn't give a bucket of piss for their futures!
Sarge
~ Insults Should Be Written In Sand ~ Compliments Should Be Carved In Stone ~
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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 1/7/2010 Posts: 4,073 Location: WI
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stevelundgren wrote:
Section by section with commentary.
Matthew 12:1- 8
At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath.
His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them.
2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him,
“Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”
3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry?
4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—
which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests.
5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple
desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent?
6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here.
7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’*
you would not have condemned the innocent.
8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Okay, this is interesting.
We were just looking at this same story in the gospel of Mark.
This rendering of the story in the gospel of Matthew has some interesting differences.
Jesus and the disciples are going through the grainfields.
The disciples are hungry. They pick and eat some grain, thus breaking sabbath law.
The Pharisees tell Jesus his "disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."
Jesus responds by pointing out that David and his companions ate the consecrated bread
"which was not lawful for them to do".
All this was found in Mark chapter 2.
We have some additional information about this story to examine.
Now Jesus brings another example for the Pharisees to consider.
He says, in the Law "the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple
desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent."
Now remember Jesus is saying this in response to the accusation that
his disciples are doing what is unlawful on the sabbath.
Jesus indicates that this desecration of the sabbath business is really
no big deal when he says this. Indicating he is greater than the temple. Which is true.
"I tell you that something greater than the temple is here." - verse 6
Then he refers back to the words spoken by the prophet Hosea.
"If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’
you would not have condemned the innocent." - verse 7
Meaning they should have exercised mercy rather than judgement concerning this sabbath breaking.
Why?
Because "the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." It's his call.
There is an important lesson here for our sabbatarian friends.
Should I spell it out, or is it obvious?
So far so good. And we are just getting started.
Were to begin.
4. Sabbath is for rest and Sacred Assembly.
No work is to be done on the Sabbath. The words used in the Bible which are translated into English as "work" are the Hebrew words kol–m'law·khaw meaning "all and any kind of creative 'generative' endeavor, changes to the environment or any object."
Lev. 23:3
There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to HaShem.
Exodus 34:21
Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.
5. Preparation and cooking of food prohibited.
These are prime examples of work which is "generative" - i.e., changing something's character. Boiling includes not only bringing a liquid to a boil with food in it, but changing food by pouring boiling water over it. It is also considered cooking to boil the water itself. Baking means not just warming something to make it better to eat, but includes bringing something to a high temperature - high enough to change it. This includes toasting bread, even in an already heated oven or surface.
Did the disciples change something's character? "If a man loses pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music in which he hears, however measured, or far away.” Henry David Thoreau
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 1/7/2010 Posts: 4,073 Location: WI
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sarge wrote:Sonny35 wrote:Let me ask you? Why should we expect that any claims for the keeping of the Sabbath Day not be rejected as unbiblical by you when you observe such UNBIBICAL traditions as the weekly 1st day sunday, Xmass and easter NOWHERE TO BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE???
If you were to except such claims would that not then stand AGAINST YOUR traditions??? Should we even dream you would do that???
No, there will be no Sabbath claims acceptable to you and to do so would be a waste of time.
All you doing is starting a new topic so as to play your juvenile circle game so no thanks, play with yourself.
Good!
Steve, press on and post the truth and ignore the idiotic statements. Evidently it irritates the Sabbatarians when real Christians expose the truth concerning the Sabbath from the New Testament. He asked for New Testament scriptures so by all means continue and lets educate these mental megaliths as to exactly what the New Testament says about Sabbath observance in Jesus' time and how it applies to todays Real Christians.
Personally, I wouldn't give a bucket of piss for their futures!
Sarge
Lucky for you there will be another chance to get things straight as per Marla's beliefs."If a man loses pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music in which he hears, however measured, or far away.” Henry David Thoreau
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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 1/4/2010 Posts: 3,100 Location: on a hill in the hollow
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This is not necessarily a restriction on the preparation of food. According to God's commands in Exodus 16, gathering and even looking for food on the Sabbath is wrong.TerryD wrote: Were to begin.
4. Sabbath is for rest and Sacred Assembly.
No work is to be done on the Sabbath. The words used in the Bible which are translated into English as "work" are the Hebrew words kol–m'law·khaw meaning "all and any kind of creative 'generative' endeavor, changes to the environment or any object."
Lev. 23:3
There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to HaShem.
Exodus 34:21
Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.
5. Preparation and cooking of food prohibited.
These are prime examples of work which is "generative" - i.e., changing something's character. Boiling includes not only bringing a liquid to a boil with food in it, but changing food by pouring boiling water over it. It is also considered cooking to boil the water itself. Baking means not just warming something to make it better to eat, but includes bringing something to a high temperature - high enough to change it. This includes toasting bread, even in an already heated oven or surface.
Did the disciples changing something's character?
Exodus 16
1 The whole Israelite community set out from Elim and came to the Desert of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after they had come out of Egypt. 2 In the desert the whole community grumbled against Moses and Aaron. 3 The Israelites said to them, “If only we had died by the LORD’s hand in Egypt! There we sat around pots of meat and ate all the food we wanted, but you have brought us out into this desert to starve this entire assembly to death.”
4 Then the LORD said to Moses, “I will rain down bread from heaven for you. The people are to go out each day and gather enough for that day. In this way I will test them and see whether they will follow my instructions. 5 On the sixth day they are to prepare what they bring in, and that is to be twice as much as they gather on the other days.”
19 Then Moses said to them, “No one is to keep any of it until morning.”
20 However, some of them paid no attention to Moses; they kept part of it until morning, but it was full of maggots and began to smell. So Moses was angry with them.
21 Each morning everyone gathered as much as they needed, and when the sun grew hot, it melted away. 22 On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much—two omers for each person—and the leaders of the community came and reported this to Moses. 23 He said to them, “This is what the LORD commanded: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the LORD. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.’”
24 So they saved it until morning, as Moses commanded, and it did not stink or get maggots in it. 25 “Eat it today,” Moses said, “because today is a sabbath to the LORD. You will not find any of it on the ground today. 26 Six days you are to gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any.”
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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TerryD wrote:... Did the disciples change something's character? [/color][/size] What does the OT say about travel on the sabbath? Is it prohibited?
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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sarge wrote:Good!
Steve, press on and post the truth and ignore the idiotic statements. Evidently it irritates the Sabbatarians when real Christians expose the truth concerning the Sabbath from the New Testament. He asked for New Testament scriptures so by all means continue and lets educate these mental megaliths as to exactly what the New Testament says about Sabbath observance in Jesus' time and how it applies to todays Real Christians... Too bad he excused himself from commenting further. (As I understand it)
If he was upset before, wait until he reads posts #8 through #10.
I have to give credit to GCI for leading me to really investigate these passages.
Their work on this subject is very scholarly.
I'm glad to see something good has come out of the WCG.
They were in a much better position than I to address these things.
Having themselves been under Armstrongism at one time.
And now they are free in Christ.
I gladly welcome them into fellowship with the body of Christ.
In the same way they welcome all who belong.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 9/9/2008 Posts: 2,981
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stevelundgren wrote:sarge wrote:Good!
Steve, press on and post the truth and ignore the idiotic statements. Evidently it irritates the Sabbatarians when real Christians expose the truth concerning the Sabbath from the New Testament. He asked for New Testament scriptures so by all means continue and lets educate these mental megaliths as to exactly what the New Testament says about Sabbath observance in Jesus' time and how it applies to today's Real Christians... Too bad he excused himself from commenting further. (As I understand it)
If he was upset before, wait until he reads posts #8 through #10.
I have to give credit to GCI for leading me to really investigate these passages.
Their work on this subject is very scholarly.
I'm glad to see something good has come out of the WCG.
They were in a much better position than I to address these things.
Having themselves been under Armstrongism at one time.
And now they are free in Christ.
I gladly welcome them into fellowship with the body of Christ.
In the same way they welcome all who belong.
Yup, and if my memory serves me correctly the GCI broke away from mainstream Armstrongism about the same time all the other splinter groups started organizing.
Also, we were just starting to explore these passages when the Sabbatarians here started coming out of the woodwork and promoting their false doctrines. The subject was changed starting with Marva and its taken this long for us to get back to the New Testament teachings on Sabbath observance.
This time, my vote is to see this topic through to its proper conclusions and explore just what God really wants from Real New Testament Christians. Your doing a great job, keep up the good work!
Sarge
~ Insults Should Be Written In Sand ~ Compliments Should Be Carved In Stone ~
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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sarge wrote:Yup, and if my memory serves me correctly the GCI broke away from mainstream Armstrongism about the same time all the other splinter groups started organizing... It was actually the cause of the splinter groups.
There is a great video series on YouTube of interviews with leadership explaining what happened.
In a nutshell, top leadership in the WCG was approached about some disturbing biblical
discoveries concerning Armstrongism beliefs.
Amazingly, top leadership agreed with the discoveries and changed the position of the church away from Armstrongism.
This enabled a split based on specific leaders who wanted to uphold Armstrongism.
None of these leaders were in agreement, or each saw it as an opportunity to have their own thing.
Making this work was pretty much guaranteed, because mandatory tithing (including mandatory triple tithing)
was part of Armstrongism. So you had an audience captive by their own beliefs to support it.
The GCI on the other hand suffered because they followed the Bible in removing mandatory tithing.
It's an interesting story, and you can really see the heart of those in the YouTube video series.
I can probably find a link for anyone interested in the back story.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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sarge wrote:... Your doing a great job, keep up the good work! [/color][/size] Thanks.
Perhaps if you and Intangible can fight off the attackers, I'll stay focused on the studies without being led away from the task with endless distracting arguments. LOL
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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Here is another reference to the sabbath.
This would indicate the sabbath still being observed in the end times.
The sabbath is a sign between Israel and God for the generations to come.
Here Jesus indicates they are still obsrving it in the end times.
Matthew 24:20-21
Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world
until now—and never to be equaled again.
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Context. Read the whole chapter for full context.
Matthew 24:15-21
“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’
spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—
16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house.
18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak.
19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!
20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—
and never to be equaled again.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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