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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 9/9/2008 Posts: 2,982
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THE SABBATH IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
In the New Testament epistles there are only 2 references to the Sabbath (Col.2:16; Heb.4:4), both these passages the apostle Paul clearly explains that this day is not a required day to be observed by Christians. To the Hebrews in the Old Covenant they were under obligation, in the New Covenant neither Jews nor Gentiles are. There is no command after the death and resurrection for the Church to keep the Sabbath as an obligation to Christ.
If one is to keep the Sabbath day as law then they are under the obligation to also observe the Sabbath year Lev.25:17. The land is to be tilled for six years and the seventh year is the Sabbath year. Vs. 8-24 Israel is instructed to number seven times seven Sabbath years (49) and the following year is the Jubilee (50th year) which would be observed by no sowing or reaping. All slaves were to be released, and the land they purchased is to be returned to the original owner. All the debts were to be forgiven. For those who want to make the Sabbath day mandatory let them abide by the law and return the land they bought and forget all their debtors. Does anyone do this? Why not. Hosea 2:11: “I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her New Moons, her Sabbaths-- all her appointed feasts.” Here we have God himself saying these will come to an end, he is the cause of it. This is not an permanent end, and can be applied to Israel in her captivity or it can certainly fit in with the New Testament dispensation. Didn’t Jesus keep the Sabbath? Yes, but for what reason? He was born under the law and kept all the law, if He violated even the smallest point he would have been disqualified to be the Messiah. He would have become a transgressor and a sinner like us. Gal.4:4 says, “God sent forth his son, made of a woman, born under the law, to redeem them that were under the law.” Jesus was the only one who kept it (and the other laws) perfectly. There are many who make an issue of Jesus being our example so we should imitate Him in everything. Well, Jesus was circumcised on the 8th day, He observed all the feast days, He also kept the entire law of Moses (613 commands). He never married, never had a permanent home. He also was very bold standing up to those who challenged the Word and His teaching. In His miracles He walked on water, healed people of organic diseases instantly and resurrected many. Can we really use ONLY the Sabbath as a means of following Him and discard the rest. The point is that He kept all the law, even the smallest parts, including what is called the law of Moses that was applicable to Him (ceremonial, civil, dietary, etc. Certain portions of the law Jesus was not under, such as sacrifices for sin). Do law keepers keep the 613 commands? The Jews did.
Didn't Paul keep the Sabbath? He went into the Jewish synagogues to preach to the Jews on their Sabbath day in Acts.13:14-43, 17:2, 18:4. He kept it as a custom to the Jews He wanted to reach but it was not an obligation by law. We need to make a distinction of the reason why it was kept, not just that it was observed. In Acts 13:42-43, They did not go to worship by obligation under the law but simply for the reason that this was the best means of reaching their brethren. Paul and Barnabas had the freedom to assemble any day they had wished. As they congregated together in the temple they invited Paul and Barnabas to come back the following Sabbath to speak to them more about the Gospel, many of the Jews and Gentile proselytes to Judaism followed them Paul and Barnabas admonished them to hold fast to the grace of God. Now where is grace found? In Christ, verses 44-52 Paul and Barnabas returned the following Sabbath to preach the Gospel to nearly all the inhabitants of Antioch, who were anticipating to hear their message. But they were met with stiff opposition from other Jews and Gentile converts to Judaism from the city. They became very jealous of their success with the people, so they expelled Paul and Barnabas from the area. It wasn’t the law Acts 13 that was being preached, but the Gospel of Jesus Christ, grace, of which they began training them in. this is not any proof that they kept the Sabbath under the New covenant. Paul gives us the reason why he kept the law in 1 Cor.9:19-20: “For though I am free from all men, yet I have made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And to the Jews I became a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law (the Jews), as under the law, that I might win those under the law . To those who are without a law (not being without a law toward god but under the law toward Christ) I might win those who are without law; to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.”
Simple answer, he made it clear he was not under the law but purposely put himself under it to reach those who were. Paul placed himself in many different situations, as one under the law (including the Sabbath) so he could reach the Jews with the Gospel. He became all things to all men so that he could present the gospel of grace, the only means of salvation. Paul’s model of evangelism was to the Jew first until they rejected his message; he then turned to the Gentiles.
There is no record of Christians congregating outside the temple of Jews or synagogues on the Sabbath, only in the temple and synagogues, not the church. This mix was those who believed and those who did not believe in Christ. Certainly believers do not worship along with those who do not. What makes this interesting is that there are no more references to keeping the Sabbath after Acts 18:4-7. This makes one wonder with the church becoming more Gentile than Jewish this fact would certainly be addressed in Acts 15 or the epistles if wrong, but it is not. Certainly it would have been presented as an opportunity for correction as the gentiles were entering the Church. Since they would not be familiar with worshipping on the Sabbath day as the custom of Judaism. In Acts 15 this letter is written to address the essential things required for the fellowship of Jewish and Gentile Christians together. The keeping of the weekly Sabbath, or the observance of any feast day, are not mentioned. There is no command of eating clean and unclean foods, only a command to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, food containing blood, and food resulting from animal strangulation. This letter to the Gentile Christians was written by the guidance of the Holy Spirit through Jewish Christian elders who counseled together in the Jerusalem Church.
Their conclusion was “Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? Acts 15:9: “It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.” Vs.21 “For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath (Acts 15:24-25) Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, 'You must be circumcised and keep the law'-- to whom we gave no such commandment!” No such commandment, why? Because they were under a new covenant.
The epistles were mostly corrective letters reinforcing what was taught in person by the apostles and to add further revelation to what had already been taught. There was absolutely no warning against Sunday worship that would be construed as pagan worship. In fact, we find it is the very opposite, they were given freedom where they did not have before. Col.2:16 mentions not to judge on days, and Romans 14:6 says that we can pick whatever day we want to observe to the Lord. Its up to our own convictions.
From the primordial Church there was a transition (Acts 20:7). The writings show the early Jewish Christians kept both without any conflict, not like there is today. There was no challenge on this, unlike circumcision and the law that became a huge issue when the church was keeping the New covenant.
They along with the apostle Paul believed Rom. 10:4: “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” By trusting in Christ's work the law is fulfilled perfectly. Christ is the end Greek- telos, meaning He is the goal of its intent. He completed it and we enter into what He did by faith. Some questions to ask yourself: who or what did the apostles preach-a day or the death and resurrection of the Savior? What saves someone? This is the message of the New Testament. There are three options, you can keep the Sabbath day and never be saved by Christ. You can be saved by Christ and never keep the Sabbath day or you can be saved and keep the Sabbath day by personal choice, but you cannot say for one to be saved they MUST keep the Sabbath.
http://www.letusreason.org/7thAd9.htm
~ Insults Should Be Written In Sand ~ Compliments Should Be Carved In Stone ~
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 9/9/2008 Posts: 2,982
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This is worth repeating.....
The epistles were mostly corrective letters reinforcing what was taught in person by the apostles and to add further revelation to what had already been taught. There was absolutely no warning against Sunday worship that would be construed as pagan worship. In fact, we find it is the very opposite, they were given freedom where they did not have before. Col.2:16 mentions not to judge on days, and Romans 14:6 says that we can pick whatever day we want to observe to the Lord. Its up to our own convictions.
They along with the apostle Paul believed Rom. 10:4: “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” By trusting in Christ's work the law is fulfilled perfectly. Christ is the end Greek- telos, meaning He is the goal of its intent. He completed it and we enter into what He did by faith.
Some questions to ask yourself: who or what did the apostles preach-a day or the death and resurrection of the Savior? What saves someone? This is the message of the New Testament.
There are three options, you can keep the Sabbath day and never be saved by Christ. You can be saved by Christ and never keep the Sabbath day or you can be saved and keep the Sabbath day by personal choice, but you cannot say for one to be saved they MUST keep the Sabbath.
~ Insults Should Be Written In Sand ~ Compliments Should Be Carved In Stone ~
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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 1/4/2010 Posts: 3,100 Location: on a hill in the hollow
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.....and yet again! sarge wrote:
This is worth repeating.....
The epistles were mostly corrective letters reinforcing what was taught in person by the apostles and to add further revelation to what had already been taught. There was absolutely no warning against Sunday worship that would be construed as pagan worship. In fact, we find it is the very opposite, they were given freedom where they did not have before. Col.2:16 mentions not to judge on days, and Romans 14:6 says that we can pick whatever day we want to observe to the Lord. Its up to our own convictions.
They along with the apostle Paul believed Rom. 10:4: “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” By trusting in Christ's work the law is fulfilled perfectly. Christ is the end Greek- telos, meaning He is the goal of its intent. He completed it and we enter into what He did by faith.
Some questions to ask yourself: who or what did the apostles preach-a day or the death and resurrection of the Savior? What saves someone? This is the message of the New Testament.
There are three options, you can keep the Sabbath day and never be saved by Christ. You can be saved by Christ and never keep the Sabbath day or you can be saved and keep the Sabbath day by personal choice, but you cannot say for one to be saved they MUST keep the Sabbath.
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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Intangible wrote:.....and yet again! sarge wrote:This is worth repeating.....The epistles were mostly corrective letters reinforcing what was taught in person by the apostles and to add further revelation to what had already been taught. There was absolutely no warning against Sunday worship that would be construed as pagan worship. In fact, we find it is the very opposite, they were given freedom where they did not have before. Col.2:16 mentions not to judge on days, and Romans 14:6 says that we can pick whatever day we want to observe to the Lord. Its up to our own convictions.
They along with the apostle Paul believed Rom. 10:4: “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” By trusting in Christ's work the law is fulfilled perfectly. Christ is the end Greek- telos, meaning He is the goal of its intent. He completed it and we enter into what He did by faith.
Some questions to ask yourself: who or what did the apostles preach-a day or the death and resurrection of the Savior? What saves someone? This is the message of the New Testament.
There are three options, you can keep the Sabbath day and never be saved by Christ. You can be saved by Christ and never keep the Sabbath day or you can be saved and keep the Sabbath day by personal choice, but you cannot say for one to be saved they MUST keep the Sabbath. What were those three options again?
There are three options:
1) You can keep the Sabbath day and never be saved by Christ.
2) You can be saved by Christ and never keep the Sabbath day, or
3) You can be saved and keep the Sabbath day by personal choice,
but you cannot say for one to be saved they MUST keep the Sabbath.
Choose carefully!
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 2/25/2011
Posts: 2,958
Location: TX
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stevelundgren wrote:Intangible wrote:.....and yet again! sarge wrote:This is worth repeating.....The epistles were mostly corrective letters reinforcing what was taught in person by the apostles and to add further revelation to what had already been taught. There was absolutely no warning against Sunday worship that would be construed as pagan worship. In fact, we find it is the very opposite, they were given freedom where they did not have before. Col.2:16 mentions not to judge on days, and Romans 14:6 says that we can pick whatever day we want to observe to the Lord. Its up to our own convictions.
They along with the apostle Paul believed Rom. 10:4: “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” By trusting in Christ's work the law is fulfilled perfectly. Christ is the end Greek- telos, meaning He is the goal of its intent. He completed it and we enter into what He did by faith.
Some questions to ask yourself: who or what did the apostles preach-a day or the death and resurrection of the Savior? What saves someone? This is the message of the New Testament.
There are three options, you can keep the Sabbath day and never be saved by Christ. You can be saved by Christ and never keep the Sabbath day or you can be saved and keep the Sabbath day by personal choice, but you cannot say for one to be saved they MUST keep the Sabbath. What were those three options again?
There are three options:
1) You can keep the Sabbath day and never be saved by Christ.
2) You can be saved by Christ and never keep the Sabbath day, or
3) You can be saved and keep the Sabbath day by personal choice,
but you cannot say for one to be saved they MUST keep the Sabbath.
Choose carefully!
You have left out your RCC sun-god-day???? You know, the day your observe, keep, assemble and worship on a weekly bases, the one that is nowhere to be found in the Scriptures to do so on a weekly bases. Only to found the the Roman Catholic Churchs writings. Why not say there are FOUR options, include the one you left out, the one y'all follow, THE SUN-GOD-DAY!
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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 1/7/2010 Posts: 4,073 Location: WI
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Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:"If a man loses pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music in which he hears, however measured, or far away.” Henry David Thoreau
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 1/7/2010 Posts: 4,073 Location: WI
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The Ten Commandments and the Sabbath in the New Testament
Is there any evidence in the New Testament before or after the cross that even one of the Ten Commandments was abolished? The most commonly attacked Commandment is one that defines it is God we love and worship and yet we find Paul keeping the Sabbath day, as his custom was since childhood, in a Jewish Synagogue. A custom is something you do religiously and without failure. What was Paul's CUSTOM and EXAMPLE while establishing the early Christian Church? Notice in the following verse that this is a Jewish synagogue and that Jews have all through history, without change, worshipped on Saturday as they still do today. Acts 17:1-2. The Jews and Pharisees which Paul was since CHILDHOOD, have ALWAYS kept Saturday as the Sabbath. Acts 26:4-5. This is proof conclusive of Saturday Sabbath keeping AFTER the cross. It was not only Paul's custom and example but that of Jesus also and He is our perfect example. Luke 4:16.
Most Christians seem to think that everything starts fresh in the New Testament but this could not be further from the truth. Just because the Translators divided the Bible into two books called the Old and New Testaments does not mean everything starts again. Absolutely everything from the Old Testament continues into the New Testament as if it was just one book not divided, and the only changes between the Old and the New Testaments are what we are specifically told has changed. And so you also do not establish if one of the Ten Commandments still exists in the New Testament by looking for it being repeated. To the contrary, you have to look to see if there is an unmistakable instruction that says a Commandment is gone or changed and if scripture is silent then it still exists. God does not work on assumptions and especially on something as important as His Moral law such as His Sabbath. If a Commandment of God was changed then the Bible would be SCREAMING the change at us.http://www.the-ten-comma...ments-new_testament.html"If a man loses pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music in which he hears, however measured, or far away.” Henry David Thoreau
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 9/9/2008 Posts: 2,982
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Terry wrote: Absolutely everything from the Old Testament continues into the New Testament as if it was just one book not divided, and the only changes between the Old and the New Testaments are what we are specifically told has changed. And so you also do not establish if one of the Ten Commandments still exists in the New Testament by looking for it being repeated. To the contrary, you have to look to see if there is an unmistakable instruction that says a Commandment is gone or changed and if scripture is silent then it still exists.
Terry, I reviewed your link and must say it is one of the most self righteous legalistic writings I've ever read. IMO much of its content borders on outright blasphemy!
It is also painfully obvious the article was written by a Sabbatarian for Sabbatarians.
..."you have to look to see if there is an unmistakable instruction that says a Commandment is gone or changed and if scripture is silent then it still exists." - Terry
The New Testament if full of scriptures that unmistakably tell us that Mosaic Law does not apply to Christians.
I think its time to start another thread to see exactly how and what the function and purpose of Mosaic Law is in relation to the New Testament. I've had this link in my favorites for some time now and I believe if one can understand it then they would understand why such legalistic Sabbatarianism is so dangerous to true Christians.
Sarge
~ Insults Should Be Written In Sand ~ Compliments Should Be Carved In Stone ~
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 9/9/2008 Posts: 2,982
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Terry wrote:This is proof conclusive of Saturday Sabbath keeping AFTER the cross. It was not only Paul's custom and example but that of Jesus also and He is our perfect example. Luke 4:16.
Proof conclusiive?! Are you kidding me! This is how you reason with scripture? Come on Terry you don't really believe this do you? I certainly hope not. 
Sarge
~ Insults Should Be Written In Sand ~ Compliments Should Be Carved In Stone ~
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 1/4/2010 Posts: 3,100 Location: on a hill in the hollow
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TerryD just happens to be dead on with this claim, "If a Commandment of God was changed then the Bible would be SCREAMING the change at us."Exodus 31
12 Then the LORD said to Moses, 13 “Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.
14 “‘Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. 15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. 16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant.
17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.’”
18 When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.TerryD wrote:The Ten Commandments and the Sabbath in the New Testament
Is there any evidence in the New Testament before or after the cross that even one of the Ten Commandments was abolished? The most commonly attacked Commandment is one that defines it is God we love and worship and yet we find Paul keeping the Sabbath day, as his custom was since childhood, in a Jewish Synagogue. A custom is something you do religiously and without failure. What was Paul's CUSTOM and EXAMPLE while establishing the early Christian Church? Notice in the following verse that this is a Jewish synagogue and that Jews have all through history, without change, worshipped on Saturday as they still do today. Acts 17:1-2. The Jews and Pharisees which Paul was since CHILDHOOD, have ALWAYS kept Saturday as the Sabbath. Acts 26:4-5. This is proof conclusive of Saturday Sabbath keeping AFTER the cross. It was not only Paul's custom and example but that of Jesus also and He is our perfect example. Luke 4:16.
Most Christians seem to think that everything starts fresh in the New Testament but this could not be further from the truth. Just because the Translators divided the Bible into two books called the Old and New Testaments does not mean everything starts again. Absolutely everything from the Old Testament continues into the New Testament as if it was just one book not divided, and the only changes between the Old and the New Testaments are what we are specifically told has changed. And so you also do not establish if one of the Ten Commandments still exists in the New Testament by looking for it being repeated. To the contrary, you have to look to see if there is an unmistakable instruction that says a Commandment is gone or changed and if scripture is silent then it still exists. God does not work on assumptions and especially on something as important as His Moral law such as His Sabbath. If a Commandment of God was changed then the Bible would be SCREAMING the change at us. Listed below is God's instructions to Israel, IF there had been a change in the commandment, the bible would be SCREAMING out that change!
Where is the clear language change in the of the Ten Commandments?
Where does God adapt or change His seventh day Sabbath and offer it to ANYONE but the Jews?
Where does God tell us the Ten Commandments are NO LONGER the Mosaic Covenant?
Where does Jesus Christ EVER instruct adherance to the Mosaic Covenant?Deuteronomy 5
NIV
The Ten Commandments
1 Moses summoned all Israel and said:
Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The LORD spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain. 5 (At that time I stood between the LORD and you to declare to you the word of the LORD, because you were afraid of the fire and did not go up the mountain.) And he said:
6 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.[/color]
7 “You shall have no other gods before me.
8 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 10 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
11 “You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
12 “Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns, so that your male and female servants may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day. Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 1/7/2010 Posts: 4,073 Location: WI
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sarge wrote:Terry wrote: Absolutely everything from the Old Testament continues into the New Testament as if it was just one book not divided, and the only changes between the Old and the New Testaments are what we are specifically told has changed. And so you also do not establish if one of the Ten Commandments still exists in the New Testament by looking for it being repeated. To the contrary, you have to look to see if there is an unmistakable instruction that says a Commandment is gone or changed and if scripture is silent then it still exists.
Terry, I reviewed your link and must say it is one of the most self righteous legalistic writings I've ever read. IMO much of its content borders on outright blasphemy!
It is also painfully obvious the article was written by a Sabbatarian for Sabbatarians.
..."you have to look to see if there is an unmistakable instruction that says a Commandment is gone or changed and if scripture is silent then it still exists." - Terry
The New Testament if full of scriptures that unmistakably tell us that Mosaic Law does not apply to Christians.
I think its time to start another thread to see exactly how and what the function and purpose of Mosaic Law is in relation to the New Testament. I've had this link in my favorites for some time now and I believe if one can understand it then they would understand why such legalistic Sabbatarianism is so dangerous to true Christians.
Sarge
It is neither SDA or COG."If a man loses pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music in which he hears, however measured, or far away.” Henry David Thoreau
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Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 2/25/2011
Posts: 2,958
Location: TX
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Intangible wrote:TerryD just happens to be dead on with this claim, "If a Commandment of God was changed then the Bible would be SCREAMING the change at us."Exodus 31
12 Then the LORD said to Moses, 13 “Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.
14 “‘Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. 15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. 16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant.
17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.’”
18 When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.TerryD wrote:The Ten Commandments and the Sabbath in the New Testament
Is there any evidence in the New Testament before or after the cross that even one of the Ten Commandments was abolished? The most commonly attacked Commandment is one that defines it is God we love and worship and yet we find Paul keeping the Sabbath day, as his custom was since childhood, in a Jewish Synagogue. A custom is something you do religiously and without failure. What was Paul's CUSTOM and EXAMPLE while establishing the early Christian Church? Notice in the following verse that this is a Jewish synagogue and that Jews have all through history, without change, worshipped on Saturday as they still do today. Acts 17:1-2. The Jews and Pharisees which Paul was since CHILDHOOD, have ALWAYS kept Saturday as the Sabbath. Acts 26:4-5. This is proof conclusive of Saturday Sabbath keeping AFTER the cross. It was not only Paul's custom and example but that of Jesus also and He is our perfect example. Luke 4:16.
Most Christians seem to think that everything starts fresh in the New Testament but this could not be further from the truth. Just because the Translators divided the Bible into two books called the Old and New Testaments does not mean everything starts again. Absolutely everything from the Old Testament continues into the New Testament as if it was just one book not divided, and the only changes between the Old and the New Testaments are what we are specifically told has changed. And so you also do not establish if one of the Ten Commandments still exists in the New Testament by looking for it being repeated. To the contrary, you have to look to see if there is an unmistakable instruction that says a Commandment is gone or changed and if scripture is silent then it still exists. God does not work on assumptions and especially on something as important as His Moral law such as His Sabbath. If a Commandment of God was changed then the Bible would be SCREAMING the change at us. Listed below is God's instructions to Israel, IF there had been a change in the commandment, the bible would be SCREAMING out that change!
Where is the clear language change in the of the Ten Commandments?
Where does God adapt or change His seventh day Sabbath and offer it to ANYONE but the Jews?
Where does God tell us the Ten Commandments are NO LONGER the Mosaic Covenant?
Where does Jesus Christ EVER instruct adherance to the Mosaic Covenant?Deuteronomy 5
NIV
The Ten Commandments
1 Moses summoned all Israel and said:
Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The LORD spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain. 5 (At that time I stood between the LORD and you to declare to you the word of the LORD, because you were afraid of the fire and did not go up the mountain.) And he said:
6 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.[/color]
7 “You shall have no other gods before me.
8 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 10 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
11 “You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
12 “Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns, so that your male and female servants may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day. New Testament: And Jesus being loyal to His Father kept the Ten Commandments and that being a Christians example to follow faithfully to the best of their abiliy in His footsteps. I know if you guys would seperate the TEN moral laws from such as tassels etc it would utterly destroy you false religion but that is as Christ did and so should a Christian. When you can't understand that FACT then you do just as the Pharisees did to Christ by making false claims against Sabbatarians. You keep trying to drag us back into the OT just to prove your own stupid false claims. A true Christian follows his Lord but you chose to follow ??? I'm not sure what you stand for or with, yourself I guess.
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 1/4/2010 Posts: 3,100 Location: on a hill in the hollow
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Sonny35 wrote:
New Testament:
And Jesus being loyal to His Father kept the Ten Commandments and that being a Christians example to follow faithfully to the best of their abiliy in His footsteps.
I know if you guys would seperate the TEN moral laws from such as tassels etc it would utterly destroy you false religion but that is as Christ did and so should a Christian.
When you can't understand that FACT then you do just as the Pharisees did to Christ by making false claims against Sabbatarians.
You keep trying to drag us back into the OT just to prove your own stupid false claims.
A true Christian follows his Lord but you chose to follow ??? I'm not sure what you stand for or with, yourself I guess.
What is the chapter and verse where I can find "And Jesus being loyal to His Father kept the Ten Commandments?"What does YHWH call His Ten Commandments?
Who are the specific written, by the hand of God, parties of this covenant?Exodus 24
12 And Jehovah said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee the tables of stone, and the law and the commandment, which I have written, that thou mayest teach them.
Exodus 25
16 And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee
Exodus 31
12 And Jehovah spake unto Moses, saying,
13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily ye shall keep my sabbaths: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am Jehovah who sanctifieth you.
14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that profaneth it shall surely be put to death; for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to Jehovah: whosoever doeth any work on the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, the two tables of the testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God. the tables of stone
the law and the commandment
the testimony
two tables of the testimony
tables of stone
the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath
between me and the children of Israel
observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenantThese Bible verses quite clearly spell out the two parties of the Covenant, some of the terms God used to describe the Ten Commandments and the specific sign of the Covenant between YHWH and Israel.
Please, anyone, show me the scripture where these terms are revoked, modified or changed!Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 1/4/2010 Posts: 3,100 Location: on a hill in the hollow
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Sonny35 wrote:
I know if you guys would seperate the TEN moral laws from such as tassels etc it would utterly destroy you false religion but that is as Christ did and so should a Christian.
"The TEN moral laws," please quote the verses of scripture that clearly identifies these "moral laws" as such.
Where does God call these TEN "moral laws?"
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 1/4/2010 Posts: 3,100 Location: on a hill in the hollow
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Sonny35 wrote:
You keep trying to drag us back into the OT just to prove your own stupid false claims.
This is the most stupid line you keep repeating, because you have it backward!
WE live under the New Covenant, sealed with the blood of Jesus Christ.
YOU CHOOSE to live under the Mosaic Covenant sealed with the sacrifice of bulls and goats!
You can't get "dragged" any further back then you have already placed yourself.
You are either deceived, a deceiver or an idiot. You claim to follow the Ten Commandments, well God also calls them two tables of stone, the testimony and the words of the covenant because the Ten are the very written Covenant of God and Israel, the Mosaic Covenant.
Now then, show the scripture that CHANGES this and declares the Sabbath, the outward sign of the Mosaic Covenant, no longer between YHWH and Israel. Show the scripture that makes these changes.
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 9/9/2008 Posts: 2,982
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Intangible wrote:Sonny35 wrote:
You keep trying to drag us back into the OT just to prove your own stupid false claims.
This is the most stupid line you keep repeating, because you have it backward!
WE live under the New Covenant, sealed with the blood of Jesus Christ.
YOU CHOOSE to live under the Mosaic Covenant sealed with the sacrifice of bulls and goats!
You can't get "dragged" any further back then you have already placed yourself.
You are either deceived, a deceiver or an idiot. You claim to follow the Ten Commandments, well God also calls them two tables of stone, the testimony and the words of the covenant because the Ten are the very written Covenant of God and Israel, the Mosaic Covenant.
Now then, show the scripture that CHANGES this and declares the Sabbath, the outward sign of the Mosaic Covenant, no longer between YHWH and Israel. Show the scripture that makes these changes.
Quote:You are either deceived, a deceiver or an idiot.
Hmm.....
1. deceived
2. a deceiver
3. an idiot
4. All of the above
That's easy....
ALL OF THE ABOVE!!!
~ Insults Should Be Written In Sand ~ Compliments Should Be Carved In Stone ~
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Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 2/25/2011
Posts: 2,958
Location: TX
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You guys are a sorry deceived lot, you are not able to seperate the Ten Commandments which express the Righteous will of God given to mankind as how he should conduct himself towards God and man from the judgments and ordiances. (you don't even know the difference)
Christ knew them well and kept them perfectly as an example for Christians to follow. Christ did not set any examples of killing bulls and goats or wearing tassels and it is beyond stupidity it even make such claims!
When you are confronted with Scriptures such as "I have kept My Fathers Commandments...", then comes one of the most stupid statements I have ever read in my entire life;
"Evidently the father commanded him not to observe the sabbath..."---Steve
Then Sarge latches on to that "Evidently" statement as if it is Scriptural fact with;
"Jesus broke Sabbath laws...He did so by the direct authority and instruction from his father."---Sarge.
Christ PLAINLY STATES HE KEPT THE COMMANDMENTS!!! And when you say He did not you are LIARS and also calling Christ a liar!!!!
When you make the claim that John an Apostle would of himself and not as it was from what the Pharisees had said that Christ had broken the Sabbath you are LIARS and calling him a liar!!!!
CHRIST NEVER BROKE THE SABBATH OR ANY OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS!!!! The Pharisees said He broke the Sabbath and they were LIARS! You say Christ broke the Sabbath and your are LIARS!
"He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me...---Christ, Jn.14:21
"If you KEEP my commandments, you will abide in My love, JUST AS I HAVE KEPT MY FATHER'S COMMANDMENTS and abide in His love."---Christ, Jn.15:10
"Who ever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, AND TEACHS MEN SO, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; BUT WHOEVER DOES AND TEACHS THEM, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."---Christ, Mt.5:19.
What do you guys teach? We should no longer keep the Sabbath, Christ did not keep the Sabbath and Christ broke the Sabbath.
What Liars, Hypocrites and Heretics are you who teach and make such claims against the Lord Christ!!
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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If the Ten Commandments are as important as you claim...
why does the title Ten Commandments not appear in the New Testament?
Nor is there a restatement of the ten. Only nine are mentioned.
The sabbath command is conspicuously absent.
The Bible makes the contrast between law and grace clear.
They are incompatible. Choose carefully.
John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Romans 10:4
Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
Hebrews 10:1
The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves...
Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete;
and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 2/25/2011
Posts: 2,958
Location: TX
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stevelundgren wrote:
If the Ten Commandments are as important as you claim...
why does the title Ten Commandments not appear in the New Testament?
Nor is there a restatement of the ten. Only nine are mentioned.
The sabbath command is conspicuously absent.
The Bible makes the contrast between law and grace clear.
They are incompatible. Choose carefully.
John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Romans 10:4
Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
Hebrews 10:1
The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves...
Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete;
and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
As for your grace and anti-law, even M. Luther explained about and coined the title for the Antinomian Doctrine long yrs ago, so nothing new or outstanding for your beliefs on that. And as for your disregard of the Lord's Sabbath(1 of the 10) you again prove Scripture, "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Ro.8:7. You go ahead and stick to your anti-Sabbath RCC sun-days and I'll stick with and follow as was Christ's Sabbath custom (the 4th commandment) and; Jn.14:21 and Jn.15:10--The Fathers as was Christ's.
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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Sonny35 wrote:... And as for your disregard of the Lord's Sabbath(1 of the 10) you again prove Scripture, "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Ro.8:7. ... I launched a topic on this subject.
What does the Apostle to the gentiles mean by "the law of God" in Romans 8:7 ?
It doesn't mean the Ten Commandments. And certainly not the sabbath command.
Firstly, we should look at the context. If you want to examine this further, I would be happy to.
The Apostle proceeds your verse above with this comment:
What the law was powerless to do, God did by sending his own son as a sin offering, in order that the
righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us who live according to the Spirit.
Therefore, verse 7 cannot be a promotion of the law God gave to Israel through Moses.
How could he say we are not under law in verses 3-4 and we are under law in verse 7 ?
Furthermore, he states in Romans 7:6 that we have been released from the law
to serve in the new way of the Spirit.
So how could he claim we are once again bound under law in Romans 8:7 ?
Romans 8:3-4
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,
God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.
And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law
might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
Romans 7:6
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law
so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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