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Dancing with God Options
paulwhut
#1 Posted : Saturday, May 10, 2008 8:40:05 AM
Rank: Advanced Member




Joined: 1/17/2008
Posts: 7,794
Dancing with God.

Dear Lord, may I have this dance…..for the rest of my life, will you be my partner, each day and night……

Steve, when you said that was a nice dance, you brought to my mind a couple dancing wherein one is leading and the partner is following. I thought that is how our relationship with God is. He is leading and we are following. When we dance with God, His scripture is leading out and we are following.

I thought that was a cool metaphor. But when it comes to dancing with God, we have to remember, just who is leading…….?
From infancy we are surrounded by influences and our thinking and habits are molded and formed. Then as we mature we in turn begin leading out and influencing others. The forces that molded us…..was it custom and traditions? Is that what is guiding our thinking?

Is it what a church teaches that is important? What if the teachings of a church are derived from men getting together and forming policies and doctrine that is a connsensus rather than a derived from a prayerful study of scripture

As I look around me I see SO MANY different churches and teachings, yet they all have the SAME bible. And they look good too! Pen-striped suits, fine strong voices, persuasive manners and CONFIDENCE…….very nice people…..(why do they differ so?) In their lives, just who is leading their dance with God?

Mark 7:6-7
6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
KJV
Also vs 9 and also in Mat 15

Matt 15:1-9
15 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the traditions of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition
4 For God commanded, saying, honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death
5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from m
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
KJV

I UNDERSTAND,,,,,,,when we are “born again”, we agree to be LED, by God through His Word……..and when other people are concerned then we are to weigh their thoughts and ideas with the WORD OF GOD……not our feelings nor our preconceived ideas or opinions.;Not I but Christ…..always ever…..!

In our dis-agreement over just who Michael is….or the Sabbath, or the State of the Dead……let us let the Scripture expand the subject And let us have the mind-set over just who is leading this dance. For the moment I’ll just talk about Michael

Josh 5:13-1
13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?

14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
15 And the captain of the Lord;s host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so


This figure was standing there in battle dress and sword drawn, and Joshua fell down and did worship Him, and also was told to “loose thy shoe from off thy foot….”, now where else in Scripture was this said?..........at the burning bush.
And Joshua did bow down and worship this Personage, who incidentally was Christ. Who also was the same entity at the burning bush. Jesus is the I AM of the OT and the I AM of the NT

This Person had to be Christ because we are plainly told in Scripture that we are not to worship angels…..Rev 19:10

Rev 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.


Jesus is the Creator and also the Revelator. He is the “Captain of the Lords Host” and He is also the “Lamb slain” from the foundation of the world. So if He chooses to adopt the name of Michael in describing some of His activities, then He has every right to do so.

This Personage in battle dress remind you of someone else? Rev 12:7-9
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.KJV

Just who is this “Michael”, that he leads the angels in this great war in heaven? AND WINS! Could it be the “Captain of the Lord’s Host” mentioned in the above Jos 5:14?
Here is another example…..

Jude 9
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusations, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.KJV

The term “archangel” is how Christ is referring to himself. Earlier he referred to himself as “captain of the Lords’ host”. So then just who is this “Michael” that he can dispute with anyone? Could it be that it is Christ?

So then we can agree to disagree. I think it is and you think it isn’t.

any road, I like thinking about Jesus holding me and leading me through this life, step by step. He tells me to keep my eyes on Him, not on the world. And when I fall asleep one day I'll be happy in His arms.

reminded also of this verse.......:
2 Tim 2:15-16
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness
KJV<br>

Many wonder today why the Republican party does nothing to defeat the treasonous
schemes of the Democrats. It is because the pope’s Jesuits have thoroughly
infiltrated the Republican party as well as the Democratic party. Many wonder why
the news media lie so much to support and protect the Democrats. It is because the
pope’s Jesuits have thoroughly infiltrated the news media. The news media and
schools and colleges, with their lies and propaganda, have so conditioned the
people of the country that they are unable to recognize what has been done to them.
Victory for the Jesuits seems very near. The Jesuits are like a cancer that has
pervaded nearly every fiber of the society of the United States. We are being
defeated by the enemy within.

For many years the Jesuits have prevented the United States from developing
additional sources of energy within its own territory. Exploiting the vast oilfields on
the Alaskan north slope, that probably contain more oil than the entire middle east,
is forbidden. New nuclear power plants, the safest source of electric energy ever
discovered, are not permitted. There is no end to the lies people have been made to
believe about Nuclear energy. The environment is used as the club to subdue the
people of the country into going along with this idiocy. Modern technology is able to
develop these sources of power without any damage to the environment. France
gets 80% of its power from nuclear power plants without any problems. Needless to
say, without sufficient energy, the United States will not be able to defend itself. All
the papacy has to do is cut off the oil supply from the middle east.

The United States is now starting to feel the pinch of the energy shortage the Jesuits
have created. People have experienced blackouts over large areas as power is shut
off to stay within the limits of generating capacity. Today, instead of constructing
additional nuclear power plants, some of these plants are being dismantled! Will the
people of the United States be able to wake up in time to prevent the coming
national tragedy?

Not only in the United States is this treachery being perpetrated by the papacy, but
they are secretly at work all over the world to subvert all the nations of the world.

"And all the world wondered after the beast." Rev 13:3 last part.
Sponsor  
 
stevelundgren
#2 Posted : Saturday, May 10, 2008 12:25:07 PM
Rank: Advanced Member


Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 220,318


Thanks Paul,



The dance is a beautiful analogy. I’m glad you took it that way. I meant it as a rebuke. It seemed to me that you were "skirting" the issue. I wanted a straight answer.



Could you expand on or explain this comment, near the end of your post.



"The term “archangel” is how Christ is referring to himself. Earlier he referred to himself as “captain of the Lords’ host”. So then just who is this “Michael” that he can dispute with anyone? Could it be that it is Christ?"



Is this in reference to Joshua 5:13-15? I think it is interesting, but not completely substantiated.



I found the response of, "Nay", from the captain of the Lord’s host to the question, "Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?", to be very interesting. "Nay" is translated as "neither", in the NIV. I notice that you prefer the KJV.



paulwhut
#3 Posted : Sunday, May 11, 2008 6:50:54 AM
Rank: Advanced Member




Joined: 1/17/2008
Posts: 7,794
Steve



Oftentimes when I use scripture to give an example or an answer, I see the verses before the target verse and the verses after and I consider the whole context and so then I include the entire segment. Only because the target verse would then be viewed more understandably.



I don’t understand why the Lord said "Nay" in his response to Joshua. I looked at the other translations in my bible program and came up with no clarification.



I will also say that there are many other things that I don’t understand and what I do with that is put it away in the back of my mind as an item that will one day be explained.



My conclusion that Michael is Christ came about as I thought about the overall heavenly activities on our behalf. The Father being the Active Agent in the Heavens, Christ and the Holy Spirit and the angels concerning Themselves mainly with the activities on this earth, in dealing with the saints and contending with the adversary.



No not just Jos 5 but the other refs taking into consideration the situation that Michael is involved with. An angel cannot raise someone from the dead, only God can do that as in Jude over the body of Moses.



And in Dan 12 who is this Michael that when he stands up there is something tremendous happening?....an angel could not effect the world in this fashion....look----:



Dan 12:1-3

12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.



2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

KJV







Since Christ and the Father decided to make the ultimate sacrifice on Jesus shedding his own blood on our behalf, the intensity of the conflict between Christ and Satan has been impossible to imagine.



When I read the book "The Great Controversy Between Christ and His Angels and Satan and His Angels"....that was the original tital back in 1888, now it has been shortened to "The Great Controversy", I was impressed with the overall view of the contest between "Good and Evil" and at that time many of my questions were answered.



Especially as regards spiritualism, and the origin of the various denominations and how satan has worked his deceptive agenda in formulating the morrass of spiritual identities in the world.



The Lord deals with us where we are. He comes down to our level and opens our eyes as best suits our situation.



My ref to 2 Tim was also a reminder to me to keep on studying as there is so much to this thing of God, His Majesty is incomprehensible to our finite minds.



That is why I latched onto the "dance" theme. Thanks to you, and I appreciate your prodding and poking.
Many wonder today why the Republican party does nothing to defeat the treasonous
schemes of the Democrats. It is because the pope’s Jesuits have thoroughly
infiltrated the Republican party as well as the Democratic party. Many wonder why
the news media lie so much to support and protect the Democrats. It is because the
pope’s Jesuits have thoroughly infiltrated the news media. The news media and
schools and colleges, with their lies and propaganda, have so conditioned the
people of the country that they are unable to recognize what has been done to them.
Victory for the Jesuits seems very near. The Jesuits are like a cancer that has
pervaded nearly every fiber of the society of the United States. We are being
defeated by the enemy within.

For many years the Jesuits have prevented the United States from developing
additional sources of energy within its own territory. Exploiting the vast oilfields on
the Alaskan north slope, that probably contain more oil than the entire middle east,
is forbidden. New nuclear power plants, the safest source of electric energy ever
discovered, are not permitted. There is no end to the lies people have been made to
believe about Nuclear energy. The environment is used as the club to subdue the
people of the country into going along with this idiocy. Modern technology is able to
develop these sources of power without any damage to the environment. France
gets 80% of its power from nuclear power plants without any problems. Needless to
say, without sufficient energy, the United States will not be able to defend itself. All
the papacy has to do is cut off the oil supply from the middle east.

The United States is now starting to feel the pinch of the energy shortage the Jesuits
have created. People have experienced blackouts over large areas as power is shut
off to stay within the limits of generating capacity. Today, instead of constructing
additional nuclear power plants, some of these plants are being dismantled! Will the
people of the United States be able to wake up in time to prevent the coming
national tragedy?

Not only in the United States is this treachery being perpetrated by the papacy, but
they are secretly at work all over the world to subvert all the nations of the world.

"And all the world wondered after the beast." Rev 13:3 last part.
stevelundgren
#4 Posted : Sunday, May 11, 2008 8:13:49 AM
Rank: Advanced Member


Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 220,318
paulwhut,



I need to bring a few things to your attention.





From your last post:



"An angel cannot raise someone from the dead, only God can do that as in Jude over the body of Moses." paulwhut



God does the "raising", but he can use whoever He chooses to perform the act of faith.



11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.

John 14:11-13



Also, in Dan 12:1-3, the subject of Michael being Jesus:



4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."

5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?"

7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed."



Daniel 12:4-7



It appears that the meaning of the words are "sealed" until the end. Are we there yet?



Also there were two others in his vision. Who is the "man clothed in linen"?



------------------------------------------------------------------------------



An observation about Michael as Jesus. Unless I am overlooking something, Jesus did not declare himself to be Michael in the Gospels, nor did the Apostle Paul make a doctrine of the idea. Therefore, it seems to me to be a minor point in theology. It belongs in what I like to call the grey area. It’s not a black and white fundamental belief.



I’m not saying it isn’t true; it just requires further investigation. Too many of the conclusions about it are based on human reasoning, too many for me to accept it as reliable doctrine. I have more faith in what the Bible declares to be true than what humans say cannot mean anything else.



mkeffer
#5 Posted : Sunday, May 11, 2008 9:29:27 AM
Rank: Advanced Member


Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 220,318
paulwhut and cult members like him lure you into a dialogue with him by stating the following affirmations:



The Bible is inspired and the word of God.

Trinitarian: The Father, Son, Holy Spirit are all one God in three persons.

Jesus is God and has always existed with the Father.

The Holy Spirit is a person.

Jesus’ sacrifice was vicarious.

Salvation is by grace, not works.

Jesus rose from the dead physically in his glorified body.

Jesus ascended bodily into heaven.

Baptism is by immersion

The literal, visible return of Jesus.

Jesus will return to set up a millennial kingdom. They are Premillennial.

Literal six day creation, not long periods.



Then they slip in "little" denials like:



Denial the immortality of the soul.

Denial the eternality and reality of hell fire.



Then they attempt to gently and subtly whisper in your ear these aberrant beliefs:



Our sins will ultimately be placed on Satan - The Great Controversy, p. 422, 485.

Jesus is Michael the Archangel.

Worship must be done on Saturday (the Sabbath).

On October 22, 1844 Jesus entered the second and last phase of his atoning work.

Investigative Judgment - the fate of all people will be decided based upon this event in the future.

The dead do not exist anymore -- soul sleep.

The wicked are annihilated.

Ellen G. White, the "founder" of Seventh Day Adventism, was a messenger from God gifted with the spirit of prophecy.

There is a sanctuary in heaven where Jesus carries out his mediatorial work.



Rebuke them, do not ertain their wicked beliefs. The gospel is to be peached not proven. Demand they repent of their wickedness and embrace Messiah of NT.

stevelundgren
#6 Posted : Sunday, May 11, 2008 2:31:37 PM
Rank: Advanced Member


Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 220,318


Hello mkeffer,



Are you saying that "they" really don’t believe these affirmations (below), or are they stated in such a way as to be deceptive? Do you personally believe these things (affirmations) as stated?



- The Bible is inspired and the word of God.

- Trinitarian: The Father, Son, Holy Spirit are all one God in three persons.

- Jesus is God and has always existed with the Father.

- The Holy Spirit is a person.

- Jesus’ sacrifice was vicarious.

- Salvation is by grace, not works.

- Jesus rose from the dead physically in his glorified body.

- Jesus ascended bodily into heaven.

- Baptism is by immersion

- The literal, visible return of Jesus.

- Jesus will return to set up a millennial kingdom. They -are Premillennial.

- Literal six day creation, not long periods.



----------------------------------------------------------------



I think you are being too hard on paulwhut. Are you discriminating against him based on what he has said, or based on a caricature of the SDA denomination?



You are suggesting that we demand that they "repent of their wickedness". Please specify the transgressions you are referring to. Theological differences in the grey areas do not require repentance. If it’s not a black and white issue, they can believe what ever they want to, as far as I’m concerned. We shouldn’t, "throw out the Christ child with the bathwater".



That’s like jeafla rejecting me because I’m Pentecostal, (and rejecting everyone else for not being a legalist like him). Religious bigotry and intolerance of differences in the body of Christ are what should be repented of. The lost are already condemned. There is no need for us to condemn anyone.



I would be happy to defend my position on this, with chapter and verse, if need be.



paulwhut
#7 Posted : Sunday, May 11, 2008 6:53:30 PM
Rank: Advanced Member




Joined: 1/17/2008
Posts: 7,794
mkeffer, you are correct in affirming that I do not agree with "Eternal" hell fire.



also in the "immortality of the soul".



These are not "Little" but "HUGHE" denials!....(spelling)



There are so many scriptures I can use for instance:



John 3:16 uses the word "perish" quite clearly.



Mal 4:1-3

4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.



2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

KJV





did you notice the wording of this last entry?..(stubble)



Are not the words clearly understood?



INCIDENTALLY....the soul consists of two (2) things....



Gen 2:7

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.KJV



Job 27:3

3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;KJV





YOU TAKE AWAY THE BREATH OF LIFE AND WHAT HAPPENS TO THE BODY????



Gen 3:19

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

KJV



just like a box consists of two things....nails and boards.   You take away the boards and what do you have?

..........nails. Where did the "box" go?



or a light bulb. You have a filament and you have electricity. These two give you LIGHT. You take away the electricy and what do you have...........?



no light.



At this time only God is immortal, man is mortal.



Immortality is given to the redeemed at the last trump, in the twinkling of the eye.



If you think that heaven would be bliss while all the time the wicked are writhing in hell-fire, then you just are not thinking correctly, and the scriptures certainly do not support you.









And you are make our Lord out to be a MONSTER.









Many wonder today why the Republican party does nothing to defeat the treasonous
schemes of the Democrats. It is because the pope’s Jesuits have thoroughly
infiltrated the Republican party as well as the Democratic party. Many wonder why
the news media lie so much to support and protect the Democrats. It is because the
pope’s Jesuits have thoroughly infiltrated the news media. The news media and
schools and colleges, with their lies and propaganda, have so conditioned the
people of the country that they are unable to recognize what has been done to them.
Victory for the Jesuits seems very near. The Jesuits are like a cancer that has
pervaded nearly every fiber of the society of the United States. We are being
defeated by the enemy within.

For many years the Jesuits have prevented the United States from developing
additional sources of energy within its own territory. Exploiting the vast oilfields on
the Alaskan north slope, that probably contain more oil than the entire middle east,
is forbidden. New nuclear power plants, the safest source of electric energy ever
discovered, are not permitted. There is no end to the lies people have been made to
believe about Nuclear energy. The environment is used as the club to subdue the
people of the country into going along with this idiocy. Modern technology is able to
develop these sources of power without any damage to the environment. France
gets 80% of its power from nuclear power plants without any problems. Needless to
say, without sufficient energy, the United States will not be able to defend itself. All
the papacy has to do is cut off the oil supply from the middle east.

The United States is now starting to feel the pinch of the energy shortage the Jesuits
have created. People have experienced blackouts over large areas as power is shut
off to stay within the limits of generating capacity. Today, instead of constructing
additional nuclear power plants, some of these plants are being dismantled! Will the
people of the United States be able to wake up in time to prevent the coming
national tragedy?

Not only in the United States is this treachery being perpetrated by the papacy, but
they are secretly at work all over the world to subvert all the nations of the world.

"And all the world wondered after the beast." Rev 13:3 last part.
stevelundgren
#8 Posted : Sunday, May 11, 2008 10:07:55 PM
Rank: Advanced Member


Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 220,318


mkeffer,



Okay, I’m starting to see some major problems with our friend here.



You and he were going at it pretty hard a few weeks ago, but I didn’t read much of it.



Hmm... I’m quickly losing my confidence.



Jessus said:

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

John 5:24



"They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power..."

2 Thessalonians 1:9



paulwhut
#9 Posted : Monday, May 12, 2008 6:09:02 AM
Rank: Advanced Member




Joined: 1/17/2008
Posts: 7,794
yeah, did you notice the word "destruction" in 2 Thes 1:9? and the words shut out......is there anyplace in all of creation where God is not present?



How long do you enjoy punishing your children? Do you go on and on and on? Or is there a time when punishment is over. They can come out of their room now and just be sure they act properly from now on.



So unless hell is temporary, and "sin and sinners" are no more.....destroyed, how can anything be "shut out from the presence of the Lord? Do you think that God enjoys punishing part of His creation?



Yes we do have eternal life as John 5 tells us. But we still have to struggle with sin problem and temptations and we are told to "overcome", not to take our eyes off of Jesus, not to be a "castaway" as Paul states.....



"Trust and obey, ’cause theres no other way....."



obey?...........what????????



(..........they were done away with.....didn’t you know???)



We are now free to act as we wish, do as we wish, all is.....all is.....(we can all go and run with any woman now and drink our beer cause there are no rules telling us not to commit adultry and to treat our selves holy.



Many wonder today why the Republican party does nothing to defeat the treasonous
schemes of the Democrats. It is because the pope’s Jesuits have thoroughly
infiltrated the Republican party as well as the Democratic party. Many wonder why
the news media lie so much to support and protect the Democrats. It is because the
pope’s Jesuits have thoroughly infiltrated the news media. The news media and
schools and colleges, with their lies and propaganda, have so conditioned the
people of the country that they are unable to recognize what has been done to them.
Victory for the Jesuits seems very near. The Jesuits are like a cancer that has
pervaded nearly every fiber of the society of the United States. We are being
defeated by the enemy within.

For many years the Jesuits have prevented the United States from developing
additional sources of energy within its own territory. Exploiting the vast oilfields on
the Alaskan north slope, that probably contain more oil than the entire middle east,
is forbidden. New nuclear power plants, the safest source of electric energy ever
discovered, are not permitted. There is no end to the lies people have been made to
believe about Nuclear energy. The environment is used as the club to subdue the
people of the country into going along with this idiocy. Modern technology is able to
develop these sources of power without any damage to the environment. France
gets 80% of its power from nuclear power plants without any problems. Needless to
say, without sufficient energy, the United States will not be able to defend itself. All
the papacy has to do is cut off the oil supply from the middle east.

The United States is now starting to feel the pinch of the energy shortage the Jesuits
have created. People have experienced blackouts over large areas as power is shut
off to stay within the limits of generating capacity. Today, instead of constructing
additional nuclear power plants, some of these plants are being dismantled! Will the
people of the United States be able to wake up in time to prevent the coming
national tragedy?

Not only in the United States is this treachery being perpetrated by the papacy, but
they are secretly at work all over the world to subvert all the nations of the world.

"And all the world wondered after the beast." Rev 13:3 last part.
lespadesa
#10 Posted : Monday, May 12, 2008 8:51:04 AM

Rank: Pawn


Joined: 4/20/2008
Posts: 42
Steve,



John 21:

15 ¶ So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.



Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.



Mark 12:

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.



The simplicity of salvation is that we believe and have faith in the promises of God and OBEY Him. If we love Him we feed His sheep. The first sheep are the Jews but salvation has been opened to all through Jesus’ death and resurrection.



This is the reason for a blood atonement once and for all. The ten commandments and all those in Deuteromony, Leviticus were more than people could observe. These laws were to be a way of living in perfection that was unobtainable in the flesh.



Thanks to the Father for the gifts of the Son and Holy Spirit!



Lespadesa
stevelundgren
#11 Posted : Monday, May 12, 2008 10:59:23 AM
Rank: Advanced Member


Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 220,318
Quote: Originally posted by paulwhut on 12 May 2008

yeah, did you notice the word "destruction" in 2 Thes 1:9? and the words shut out......is there anyplace in all of creation where God is not present?...
We will have to agree to disagree on this. I will not entertain human reasoning against what scripture plainly says. I would urge you to adopt the same approach. Hell and eternal punishment are very difficult doctrines to hold to. But I will not abandon them simply because they are uncomfortable.





stevelundgren
#12 Posted : Monday, May 12, 2008 11:07:01 AM
Rank: Advanced Member


Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 220,318
Quote: Originally posted by lespadesa on 12 May 2008

Steve,



John 21:

15 ¶ So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
Thanks Les,



Here is an interesting point. Did you notice the resurrected Christ asked Peter to affirm Him three times? The same Peter that had denied Him three times.



dsmdaryl
#13 Posted : Monday, May 12, 2008 11:25:11 AM
Rank: Advanced Member


Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 220,318
The first sheep are the Jews



You sure about that?



Matthew 10:5-6



5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:



6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.



Hebrews 8:8

For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:



The first sheep are the House of Israel. Those who were of the dispersion. The tribe of Judah is included in the 12 (or 13, depending) tribes, but certainly not seperate from nor held in higher regard from the rest of the tribes.



There are distinctions that should be made, and we should be careful of sweeping statements like that.
stevelundgren
#14 Posted : Monday, May 12, 2008 1:52:56 PM
Rank: Advanced Member


Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 220,318
dsmdaryl,



I stumbled on that statement as well. But, I had bigger fish to fry, so I let it go. I thought that the statement (see below) was basically true, but poorly stated. I had to re-read it before I let it go.



"The simplicity of salvation is that we believe and have faith in the promises of God and OBEY Him. If we love Him we feed His sheep. The first sheep are the Jews but salvation has been opened to all through Jesus’ death and resurrection." Lespadesa



Romans 1:16 agrees with his statement in general terms.



"I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile."



---------------------------------------------------------------



Are you sure that "house of Israel" is not used as a general reference to all the Israelites? All the tribes were sons of Jacob (Israel).



We should run this by mkeffer.



paulwhut
#15 Posted : Monday, May 12, 2008 5:35:26 PM
Rank: Advanced Member




Joined: 1/17/2008
Posts: 7,794
The reason Jesus told the dicples to go first to the House of Israel is because the time of the Jews was not yet expired....(see Dan 9)



It would expire when they stoned Stephen. THEN the gospel would go to the gentiles.



paul
Many wonder today why the Republican party does nothing to defeat the treasonous
schemes of the Democrats. It is because the pope’s Jesuits have thoroughly
infiltrated the Republican party as well as the Democratic party. Many wonder why
the news media lie so much to support and protect the Democrats. It is because the
pope’s Jesuits have thoroughly infiltrated the news media. The news media and
schools and colleges, with their lies and propaganda, have so conditioned the
people of the country that they are unable to recognize what has been done to them.
Victory for the Jesuits seems very near. The Jesuits are like a cancer that has
pervaded nearly every fiber of the society of the United States. We are being
defeated by the enemy within.

For many years the Jesuits have prevented the United States from developing
additional sources of energy within its own territory. Exploiting the vast oilfields on
the Alaskan north slope, that probably contain more oil than the entire middle east,
is forbidden. New nuclear power plants, the safest source of electric energy ever
discovered, are not permitted. There is no end to the lies people have been made to
believe about Nuclear energy. The environment is used as the club to subdue the
people of the country into going along with this idiocy. Modern technology is able to
develop these sources of power without any damage to the environment. France
gets 80% of its power from nuclear power plants without any problems. Needless to
say, without sufficient energy, the United States will not be able to defend itself. All
the papacy has to do is cut off the oil supply from the middle east.

The United States is now starting to feel the pinch of the energy shortage the Jesuits
have created. People have experienced blackouts over large areas as power is shut
off to stay within the limits of generating capacity. Today, instead of constructing
additional nuclear power plants, some of these plants are being dismantled! Will the
people of the United States be able to wake up in time to prevent the coming
national tragedy?

Not only in the United States is this treachery being perpetrated by the papacy, but
they are secretly at work all over the world to subvert all the nations of the world.

"And all the world wondered after the beast." Rev 13:3 last part.
stevelundgren
#16 Posted : Monday, May 12, 2008 6:19:27 PM
Rank: Advanced Member


Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 220,318
Quote: Originally posted by paulwhut on 12 May 2008

The reason Jesus told the dicples to go first to the House of Israel is because the time of the Jews was not yet expired....(see Dan 9)



It would expire when they stoned Stephen. THEN the gospel would go to the gentiles.



paul


What?! Please explain how you came to that conclusion.





paulwhut
#17 Posted : Monday, May 12, 2008 7:28:55 PM
Rank: Advanced Member




Joined: 1/17/2008
Posts: 7,794
Steve, I’ve been quick in the past to respond to your questions and also others. I think I’ve been doing you a disservice. It seems that info w/o prayer and study is nothing but info and quickly discarded.



I remember back when I was starting the Christian walkway I was quick to check everything new I was learning. I went to the library, I got out the encyclopedias, and I read this and I read that, and I verified the info I was interested in.



mkeffer put up a list a few posts ago, and I want you to know that although you guys may question my posts, I put them up with good intentions. Trying to be helpful and also trying to uncover truths that have been obscoured by the adversary.



You let me know when You have read Daniel 9, also after you have checked the center margin references (my bible doesn’t have one, I have a Thompson Chain Ref), but anyhow. Do some homework.



You and other bible scholars have poo pooed my comments on immortality of the soul and also hell forever.



Look up the refs. Discard pre-conceived ideas and such. Just look at the scriptures prayerfully and you will come to the answers you are seeking.



Satan has at the top of his list of deceptions for the last days two items that have been so successful in his lineup:



bet you can’t even come close to telling me what I’m talking about.



If there were a way to pull up all of my posts you would have a broad overview of what I’ve learned that the bible is trying to get into our thick heads.



Just know this. That the Book of Daniel goes hand in hand with the Book of Revelation. And that the OT prophets shed much light on current events.....big time!



And I know of no other church that is talking on these subjects.
Many wonder today why the Republican party does nothing to defeat the treasonous
schemes of the Democrats. It is because the pope’s Jesuits have thoroughly
infiltrated the Republican party as well as the Democratic party. Many wonder why
the news media lie so much to support and protect the Democrats. It is because the
pope’s Jesuits have thoroughly infiltrated the news media. The news media and
schools and colleges, with their lies and propaganda, have so conditioned the
people of the country that they are unable to recognize what has been done to them.
Victory for the Jesuits seems very near. The Jesuits are like a cancer that has
pervaded nearly every fiber of the society of the United States. We are being
defeated by the enemy within.

For many years the Jesuits have prevented the United States from developing
additional sources of energy within its own territory. Exploiting the vast oilfields on
the Alaskan north slope, that probably contain more oil than the entire middle east,
is forbidden. New nuclear power plants, the safest source of electric energy ever
discovered, are not permitted. There is no end to the lies people have been made to
believe about Nuclear energy. The environment is used as the club to subdue the
people of the country into going along with this idiocy. Modern technology is able to
develop these sources of power without any damage to the environment. France
gets 80% of its power from nuclear power plants without any problems. Needless to
say, without sufficient energy, the United States will not be able to defend itself. All
the papacy has to do is cut off the oil supply from the middle east.

The United States is now starting to feel the pinch of the energy shortage the Jesuits
have created. People have experienced blackouts over large areas as power is shut
off to stay within the limits of generating capacity. Today, instead of constructing
additional nuclear power plants, some of these plants are being dismantled! Will the
people of the United States be able to wake up in time to prevent the coming
national tragedy?

Not only in the United States is this treachery being perpetrated by the papacy, but
they are secretly at work all over the world to subvert all the nations of the world.

"And all the world wondered after the beast." Rev 13:3 last part.
nestgotjesus
#18 Posted : Monday, May 12, 2008 7:54:17 PM
Rank: Advanced Member


Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 220,318
Paul, We are also concerned that the church is not teaching present day events held in comparison with what Daniel and Revelation tells us.

Does your church have any online teaching?
paulwhut
#19 Posted : Monday, May 12, 2008 8:05:31 PM
Rank: Advanced Member




Joined: 1/17/2008
Posts: 7,794
nestgotJesus, hello



there are many, here are a few:



Faith for Today

It is Written

Saccentral.com

bibleinfo.com

sabbathtruth.com

amazingfacts.org



and many more. Most have links to other locations. The beautiful thing is that all are on the same page, biblically speaking.



SDA’s are sticklers for biblical accuracy. Some will label us cultic because we also have within our denomination the profetic gift (spelling).



But that is allright. Back in the 1800’s we could have told you that smoking was harmful, along with drinking, also that certain foods were very bad for you, and now today, the medical field is substanuating what was taught back then, is definitely true.



Rev 12:17 describes God’s last day people and they are not the run-of-the-mill christians.



Rev 14:12, Rev 22.14 and so on.



Also the Good Lord treats people who keeps His commandments in a special way. As any parent would whose children obeys.
Many wonder today why the Republican party does nothing to defeat the treasonous
schemes of the Democrats. It is because the pope’s Jesuits have thoroughly
infiltrated the Republican party as well as the Democratic party. Many wonder why
the news media lie so much to support and protect the Democrats. It is because the
pope’s Jesuits have thoroughly infiltrated the news media. The news media and
schools and colleges, with their lies and propaganda, have so conditioned the
people of the country that they are unable to recognize what has been done to them.
Victory for the Jesuits seems very near. The Jesuits are like a cancer that has
pervaded nearly every fiber of the society of the United States. We are being
defeated by the enemy within.

For many years the Jesuits have prevented the United States from developing
additional sources of energy within its own territory. Exploiting the vast oilfields on
the Alaskan north slope, that probably contain more oil than the entire middle east,
is forbidden. New nuclear power plants, the safest source of electric energy ever
discovered, are not permitted. There is no end to the lies people have been made to
believe about Nuclear energy. The environment is used as the club to subdue the
people of the country into going along with this idiocy. Modern technology is able to
develop these sources of power without any damage to the environment. France
gets 80% of its power from nuclear power plants without any problems. Needless to
say, without sufficient energy, the United States will not be able to defend itself. All
the papacy has to do is cut off the oil supply from the middle east.

The United States is now starting to feel the pinch of the energy shortage the Jesuits
have created. People have experienced blackouts over large areas as power is shut
off to stay within the limits of generating capacity. Today, instead of constructing
additional nuclear power plants, some of these plants are being dismantled! Will the
people of the United States be able to wake up in time to prevent the coming
national tragedy?

Not only in the United States is this treachery being perpetrated by the papacy, but
they are secretly at work all over the world to subvert all the nations of the world.

"And all the world wondered after the beast." Rev 13:3 last part.
stevelundgren
#20 Posted : Monday, May 12, 2008 8:15:22 PM
Rank: Advanced Member


Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 220,318


paulwhut,



I don’t question your motives. Until recently, I have been very supportive of you. I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt. I don’t discard someone as soon as I find out they are not from my denomination.



Our conversations in the past have been on a more collegial basis, showing a peer-to-peer level of respect. Something may have happened to you while locking horns with mkeffer and others. I didn’t follow those posts very carefully, I was battling with jeafla at the time. I know these forums can have an affect on us. I know I’m not the same as I was; for better or worse.



Anyway, the dialogue lately has been more about posturing and less about sharing. That is typical when disagreements arise, I suppose.



Your last post addressed to me, takes a tone of arrogance that I find disturbing. It seems to say that if I would apply myself to study, then I would understand what you do. I beg your pardon?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------



"Satan has at the top of his list of deceptions for the last days two items that have been so successful in his lineup: bet you can’t even come close to telling me what I’m talking about." paulwhut



I have personally witnessed nearly 200 people being delivered from demons. And I am fairly well read on the subject. So I suppose I know something about it. I have also completed a rough draft of a book titled: Hearing Satan’s Voice; Spiritual Warfare in the Postmodern Era. Whether I could win a guessing game by coming up with YOUR top two is beside the point.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------



I would like you to address the items in the list that mkeffer provided. I need some answers from you. I’m trying to distinguish between the real you and the affects of denominational teachings.





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