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Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 641
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Jesus said to keep the Sabbath. Jesus said he kept the sabbath.
Jesus said He was Lord of the sabbath. Jesus said to keep the Commandments.
Jesus did not say to keep some of the commandments.
Anyone who believes they are not rquired to keep all of
the Commandments is not obeying Christ and have no right to
tell others how to worship. Disobeying God is a sin. Keeping the Sabbath is not.
Throwing out anything Christ said is a sin. Keeping the Sabbath is not.
Why would anyone believe that Christ is Lord of something He abolished. That would
make Him the God of confusion along with being a liar.
The Sabbath is part of God's Commandments. Jesus is God.
Jesus did not bring a new set of Commandments. He explained how to live by the old ones.
If He abolished even one jot of the law then he lied to all of us.
I for one would not want to be guilty of calling Christ a liar.
I choose to believe him when He said he did not come to do away with any of the laws.
It's safer that way.
Jesus said "If You love me keep My commandments." I think he meant it when He said it.
If He didn't mean the original ten Commandments, then he can't be God, who wrote the
original Commandments. If we can pick and choose which Commandment to disobey, I choose
"Thou shall not steal"
I can get a lot of free stuff without feeling guilty.
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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 4/21/2010 Posts: 1,457 Location: Michigan
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stevelundgren wrote:davidnclo wrote:well
Steve I hope that we all look at this with an open mind. I don't claim to know it all. I would like to know why you are so into not remembering what God says to remember. you call the seventh day sabbath the Jewish Sabbath. So with your reasoning its ok to commit adultery because thats a Jewish marriage. why is it that we want to keep what we want and tell God "I know better than you. Again lets look at the first commandment, thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Can we do away with that one too. that's for the Jews. I think you are trying to defend 1st day worship. there is nothing in my Bible that says" remember the first day".In fact there's not one plain "thus saith the Lord". well first thing I would like to know do you keep any day holy? just going to church and going home and mowing the grass is not keeping any day holy. why are you trying to knock these SDA folk. Do you know what they really believe? Just because you cannot prove something doesn't give you the right to attack anyone and slander them. Do you think that is how God would handle the situation. God does not force anyone to do anything. He just says this is the way, walk ye in it. He says don't forget My sabbath. Please for your own sake, find out where this came. Did it come from God or from the man of sin. I think you are a intellegent man. you asked "where in the new testiment does it say that the gentiles were to keep the sabbath, well that wasn't even a question then. the day wasn't changed until the middle ages by the papacy "the man of sin". why address something that is a "known truth". Jesus is our only ticket to heaven,the only way of salvation. We must by free will follow Him. Never does He force anyone, He just says Come unto me. God bless you my friend. Your brother in Christ "David". Look at this with an open mind? Hmm... That's a WCOG approach. You're COG then?
Why am I "into not remembering what God says to remember"?
Who was he talking to when he said that? I wasn't brought out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
I'm not "trying to knock these SDA folk". I just disagree with the doctrine.
They like to call me "lawless", "law-breaker", "Sundaykeeper", "antichrist", "sabbath-breaker" and "Pope kisser".
I object to the abuse, but they aren't concerned about that.
Just so we are clear, I believe the sabbath is on the seventh day. Sunday is not the sabbath. Sunday is the Lord's Day.
Why would you assume that gentiles were keeping the jewish sabbath? It wasn't part of their culture.
Gentiles weren't welcome to worship Jesus in jewish synogogues. That's ridiculous.
If they were supposed to observe the sabbath, they would need to be instructed. Where is the instruction?
Quote:Steve wrote:
Just so we are clear, I believe the sabbath is on the seventh day. Sunday is not the sabbath. Sunday is the Lord's Day. How is Sunday the Lord's day, when Christ Himself said He was Lord of the Sabbath? "And He [Jesus Christ] said to them, 'The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath'" (Mark 2:27,28). And yes the Bible clearly shows that Gentiles worshipped on the Sabbath. Acts 13:42-44 shows what Paul did, ...the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. Also Acts 18:4 states, And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks. For more info:CLICK HERECOG Writer LinkIf you open your bible be led by the Holy spirit.
Let God own you.
Do not believe doctrines of men.
Prove all things for yourself.
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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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candie wrote:
Jesus said to keep the Sabbath...
Hmm...
Where did he say that? Directly and specifically.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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sumr0luv wrote:Quote:Steve wrote:
Just so we are clear, I believe the sabbath is on the seventh day. Sunday is not the sabbath. Sunday is the Lord's Day. How is Sunday the Lord's day, when Christ Himself said He was Lord of the Sabbath? ... Good question.
The term the Lord's Day only appears once in the Bible.
There is no explanation given as to exactly which day of the week it was.
If it was the sabbath then it should have been called the sabbath.
Revelation 1:10 NIV
On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,
So how could we know what this meant. You use conjecture to declare what you believe. You have no basis.
The only sure way I know of to determine what it meant is to look at how the term was used in early Christian writing.
The usage by the early church will help us define what it means. Is that fair? Based purely on scripture we don't know for sure. Here's part of an article on the subject.
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Around 110 A.D., St. Ignatius of Antioch used the word kyriake in a passage of his letter to the Magnesians that has often been cited as early evidence of Christianity's change from observance of seventh-day Sabbath to observance of Sunday. However, due to textual variants, the meaning of that passage is in dispute. Based on the only extant Greek manuscript of the letter to the Magnesians, the Codex Mediceo-Laurentianus, the passage in question could be translated, "If, then, those who had walked in ancient practices attained unto newness of hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living according to the Lord’s life . . ." (kata kyriaken zoen zontes). But a medieval Latin translation of Magnesians indicates a textual reading of kata kyriaken zontes, which yields the translation, "no longer observing the Sabbath, but living according to the Lord's Day." Due to the uncertainty over the text, it is unclear whether or not Ignatius referred to the Lord's Day in this passage. However, the expanded Pseudo-Ignatian version of Magnesians from the middle of the third century rewrites this passage so that there can be no doubt that Pseudo-Ignatius understood it as a reference to Sunday. Pseudo-Ignatius writes, "Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, . . . But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, . . . And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord’s Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week]."
Source
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There you go. Around 110 A.D. we find this definition of the term the Lord's Day.
"... And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord’s Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week]."
"... no longer observing the Sabbath, but living according to the Lord's Day."
The Lord's Day then is resurrection-day, the first day of the week.
Lot's of great things happened on this day of the week.
- The resurrection of Christ.
- Christ's appearance on the Road to Emmaus the same day.
- Christ's appearance to his disciple the same day.
- Christ's appearance to his disciple exactly a week later on the same day of the week.
- The giving of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
- The giving of John's Revelation.
- The Apostle Paul requested the gathering of offering when the church met on that day.
- The Church has been meeting on that day ever since the resurrection.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 1/17/2008 Posts: 4,039
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stevelundgren wrote:candie wrote:
Jesus said to keep the Sabbath...
Hmm...
Where did he say that? Directly and specifically.
hmmm
Wasn't it in Mark that Jesus said he was Lord of the sabbath?
There are texts throughout the Bible indicating how God feels about his law.
hmmm
well you got the Fourth Commandment for starters, also you got Verses 1-3 of Gen 2
Then you got Is 58:13
You can not prove that Jesus did not say these words.
If you read the Bible it says again that Jesus and His Father are "one"............The Holy Ghost was in on it too...........
and on and on
Candie, you are wasting your breath.....how did I allow myself to get in this...........=( Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy law.
Ps 119:136
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 4/21/2010 Posts: 1,457 Location: Michigan
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stevelundgren wrote:sumr0luv wrote:Quote:Steve wrote:
Just so we are clear, I believe the sabbath is on the seventh day. Sunday is not the sabbath. Sunday is the Lord's Day. How is Sunday the Lord's day, when Christ Himself said He was Lord of the Sabbath? ... Good question.
Quote:Steve wrote:
The term the Lord's Day only appears once in the Bible.
There is no explanation given as to exactly which day of the week it was.
If it was the sabbath then it should have been called the sabbath.
Revelation 1:10 NIV
On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,
So how could we know what this meant. You use conjecture to declare what you believe. You have no basis.
The only sure way I know of to determine what it meant is to look at how the term was used in early Christian writing.
Steve I think I have good scriptural basis to show you what is meant by the Lord's Day. And also some early christian writings to show how the Lord's Day became known as Sunday.
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Bare with me I will try not to use much conjecture and attempt to shorten it up without leaving out important details.---
Revelation 1:10 begins with, “I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day” (NKJV, unless otherwise noted).
Some believe this refers to Sunday, while others believe this has to do with the “Day of the Lord”. Are either of those views correct? Are there any other verses in the Bible that mention the "Lord's Day"?
Revelation 6:12-17 states,
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
And notice Joel 2:30-31,
And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
Joel thus shows that the time in Revelation is called, “the day of the LORD” in the Old Testament. It should perhaps be noted that when the New Testament quotes an Old Testament verse which uses the term LORD (Yahveh) it is most frequently quoted as Lord. And that is precisely how verse 31 is rendered in Acts 2:20, “The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come” (KJV).
Joel 1:15 states,
Alas for the day! For the day of the LORD is at hand; It shall come as destruction from the Almighty”.
Zephaniah shows us,
The great day of the LORD is near; It is near and hastens quickly. The noise of the day of the LORD is bitter; There the mighty men shall cry out. That day is a day of wrath, A day of trouble and distress, A day of devastation and desolation, A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, A day of trumpet and alarm Against the fortified cities And against the high towers. "I will bring distress upon men, And they shall walk like blind men, Because they have sinned against the LORD; Their blood shall be poured out like dust, And their flesh like refuse" (Zephaniah 1:14-17).
Isaiah talks about the same time,
Wail, for the day of the LORD is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty. Therefore all hands will be limp, Every man's heart will melt, And they will be afraid. Pangs and sorrows will take hold of them; They will be in pain as a woman in childbirth; They will be amazed at one another;Their faces will be like flames. Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger,To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine. "I will punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity; I will halt the arrogance of the proud, And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold, A man more than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens,And the earth will move out of her place, In the wrath of the LORD of hosts And in the day of His fierce anger” (Isaiah 13:6-13).
Protestant scholar J.A. Seiess wrote:
Revelation 1:1-3
John...says he "was in Spirit in the Lord's day," in which he beheld what he afterward wrote. What is meant by this "Lord's day"? Some answer, Sunday, the first day of the week; but I am not satisfied with this explanation...
the Scriptures nowhere call it "the Lord's day." None of the Christian writings for 100 years after Christ ever call it "the Lord's day." But there is a "Day of the Lord" largely treated of by prophets, apostles, and fathers, the meaning of which is abundantly clear and settled.
It is that day in which, Isaiah says, people shall hide in the rocks for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty; the day which Joel describes as the day of destruction from the Almighty, when the Lord shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem, and the heavens and the earth shall shake; the day to which the closing chapter of Malachi refers as the day that shall burn as an oven, and in which the Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in his wings;
the day which Paul proclaimed from Mars' Hill as that in which God will judge the world, concerning which he so earnestly exhorted the Thessalonians, and which was not to come until after a great apostasy from the faith, and the ripening of the wicked for destruction;
the day in the which, Peter says, the heavens shall be changed, the elements melt, the earth burn, and all present orders of things give way to new heavens and a new earth; even "the day for which all other days were made." And on that day I understand John to say, he in some sense was.
In the mysteries of prophetic rapport, which the Scriptures describe as "in Spirit," and which Paul declared inexplicable, he was caught out of himself, and out of his proper place and time, and stationed amid the stupendous scenes of the great day of God, and made to see the actors in them, and to look upon them transpiring before his eyes, that he might write what he saw, and give it to the churches.
This is what I understand by his being "in Spirit in the Lord's day." (from The Apocalypse: Exposition of the Book of Revelation, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1998, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
The late John Ogwyn wrote:
The Day of the Lord
Most commentators completely misunderstand Revelation 1:10. As a result, they do not understand the perspective from which the entire book was written. When John declared that he was in the Spirit in the Lord’s Day (Note that, elsewhere in the New Testament, the Greek word en is almost always translated "in," though many wrongly render it here as "on" , he was not talking about the day of the week on which he received the prophecy. Rather, he was describing the future prophetic time that he saw in vision—a time when God will intervene powerfully in end-time world affairs. John’s perspective in writing Revelation was this vision of the future (Ogywn J. Revelation The Mystery Unveiled!, 2006, p. 6).
Thus, it appears that many believe that the proper way to understand the expression ‘Lord’s Day’ in Revelation 1:10, is that it is not referring to a day of the week, but is referring to the Day of the Lord.
Ok now here is how it may have become misunderstood.
Several have written that the expression “the Lord’s Day” for Sunday entered the Greco-Roman churches from Mithraism. Here is what Thomas H. Greer wrote:
Mithra was also associated with the sun, and his followers marked Sunday as his day of worship. They called it the "Lord's Day," for Mithra was known to them as Lord (Greer T. A brief history of Western man, 3rd edition. Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1977; Original from the University of Michigan, Digitized Apr 27, 2006, p. 121).
Interestingly I also ran across some writings from the late Martin Luther King. Jr. on Mithraism that he apparently wrote on February 15, 1950:
Mithraism...was suppressed by the Christians sometime in the latter part of the fourth century A.D.: but its collapse seems to have been due to the fact that by that time many of its doctrines had been adopted by the church, so that it was practically absorbed by its rival.
...the Church made a sacred day out of Sunday partially because...of the resurrection. But when we observe a little further we find that as a solar festival, Sunday was the sacred day of Mithra: it is also interesting to notice that since Mithra was addressed as Lord, Sunday must have been "the Lord's Day" long before Christian use. It is also to be noticed that our Christmas, December 25th, was the birthday of Mithra, and was only taken over in the Fourth Century as the date, actually unknown, of the birth of Jesus.
To make the picture a little more clear, we may list a few of the similarities between these two religions: (1) Both regard Sunday as a Holy Day. (2) December 25 came to be considered as the anniversary of the birth of Mithra and Christ also.(3)Baptism and a ritual meal were important parts of both groups...
In summary we may say that the belief in immortality, a mediator between god and man, the observance of certain sacramental rites...were common to Mithraism and Christianity. (King ML. The papers of Martin Luther King, Jr, Volume 4. Clayborne Carson, Ralph Luker, Penny A. Russell editors/compliers. University of California Press, 1992, pp. 307, 309.)
Notice that Martin Luther King, Jr. clearly understood that the Sunday churches dropped the Sabbath, that "the Lord's Day" essentially first meant the day of Mithra, and that the worlds' churches did adopt many practices from Mithraism. It also is likely that the first references to the "Lord's day" in semi-Gnostic literature was the result of some interaction between Mithraism and those who made some profession of Christianity.
For More on Mithraism:
From a strictly biblical perspective, the only ‘Lord’s Day’ is the seventh day Sabbath. It was Jesus who specifically claimed to be "Lord of the Sabbath" (Mark 2:28).
There is simply nothing in the context of the Book of Revelation to suggest that a particular day of the week, like Sunday, is being referred to. The only way people can see that the Lord's Day in Revelation 1:10 means Sunday is because they read something into the verse that is not there nor supported anywhere else in the Bible. There are also no direct references to any Sunday morning church service in any of the books of the Bible.
The Book of Revelation is prophetic (Revelation 1:1-3). The prophesies include events leading up to, as well as after, the time referred to in the Bible as the ‘Day of The Lord’. The Book of Revelation specifically lists events that the Old Testament prophets stated would be near the ‘Day of the Lord’.
It is therefore clear that Revelation 1:10 is not talking about Sunday as certain theologians suggest. Instead, the Book of Revelation lists many events that occur around the prophesied “Day of the Lord". And that is the biblically logical conclusion.For more info:CLICK HERECOG Writer LinkIf you open your bible be led by the Holy spirit.
Let God own you.
Do not believe doctrines of men.
Prove all things for yourself.
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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The Lord's Day and the Day of the Lord are as different as the Lord's Day and the sabbath.
So are you also saying that the Day of the Lord is the sabbath?
Why would the Apostle John say he was in the Spirit on the Day of the Lord?
He is saying that he was entering into worship when this revelation came upon him without prior warning.
He didn't have a revelation and then say he was in the Spirit on the Day of the Lord.
He said he was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day. And then had a revelation.
Read it again.
Revelation 1:10-11 NIV
On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,
which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea."
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 1/7/2010 Posts: 4,073 Location: WI
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candie wrote:
Jesus said to keep the Sabbath. Jesus said he kept the sabbath.
Jesus said He was Lord of the sabbath. Jesus said to keep the Commandments.
Jesus did not say to keep some of the commandments.
Anyone who believes they are not rquired to keep all of
the Commandments is not obeying Christ and have no right to
tell others how to worship. Disobeying God is a sin. Keeping the Sabbath is not.
Throwing out anything Christ said is a sin. Keeping the Sabbath is not.
Why would anyone believe that Christ is Lord of something He abolished. That would
make Him the God of confusion along with being a liar.
The Sabbath is part of God's Commandments. Jesus is God.
Jesus did not bring a new set of Commandments. He explained how to live by the old ones.
If He abolished even one jot of the law then he lied to all of us.
I for one would not want to be guilty of calling Christ a liar.
I choose to believe him when He said he did not come to do away with any of the laws.
It's safer that way.
Jesus said "If You love me keep My commandments." I think he meant it when He said it.
If He didn't mean the original ten Commandments, then he can't be God, who wrote the
original Commandments. If we can pick and choose which Commandment to disobey, I choose
"Thou shall not steal"
I can get a lot of free stuff without feeling guilty.
Right on. "If a man loses pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music in which he hears, however measured, or far away.” Henry David Thoreau
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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paulwhut wrote:stevelundgren wrote:candie wrote:
Jesus said to keep the Sabbath...
Hmm... Where did he say that? Directly and specifically. hmmm Wasn't it in Mark that Jesus said he was Lord of the sabbath? There are texts throughout the Bible indicating how God feels about his law. hmmm well you got the Fourth Commandment for starters, also you got Verses 1-3 of Gen 2 Then you got Is 58:13 You can not prove that Jesus did not say these words. If you read the Bible it says again that Jesus and His Father are "one"............The Holy Ghost was in on it too........... and on and on Candie, you are wasting your breath.....how did I allow myself to get in this...........=) So you admit that Jesus didn't actually say that?
The only way you can claim Jesus said it is to say that on the basis of his deity he was the giver of the Ten Commandments.
Yet nowhere in the new testament is your claim supported.
Jesus saying he was Lord of the sabbath is not a directive for gentiles to observe the jewish sabbath.
Nor do any of the Apostles support your claim.
I can't believe you are siding with JWest (candie).
He doesn't believe the sabbath day is limited to the seventh day.
He believes the sabbath is any day following six days of work.
You can put the sabbath anywhere in the week that you want.
That's what you are agreeing with.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 4/21/2010 Posts: 1,457 Location: Michigan
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stevelundgren wrote:The Lord's Day and the Day of the Lord are as different as the Lord's Day and the sabbath.
So are you also saying that the Day of the Lord is the sabbath?
Why would the Apostle John say he was in the Spirit on the Day of the Lord?
He is saying that he was entering into worship when this revelation came upon him without prior warning.
He didn't have a revelation and then say he was in the Spirit on the Day of the Lord.
He said he was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day. And then had a revelation.
Read it again.
Revelation 1:10-11 NIV
On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,
which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea."
Quote:Steve wrote:
So are you also saying that the Day of the Lord is the sabbath? No... I showed you that Rev.1:10 in no way is speaking of any day for worship.
(Most of this is in my post above. But I will reiterate for clarification.)
In order to understand scripture. We have to let scripture define scripture, so that it all fits together and makes sense.
Isaiah 28:9-10 (New King James Version)
9 “ Whom will he teach knowledge?
And whom will he make to understand the message?
Those just weaned from milk?
Those just drawn from the breasts?
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little, there a little.”
With that in mind. Lets see--
Are there any other verses in the Bible that mention the "Lord's Day"?
notice Joel 2:30-31,
And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
Joel thus shows that the time in Revelation is called, “the day of the LORD” in the Old Testament. It should perhaps be noted that when the New Testament quotes an Old Testament verse which uses the term LORD (Yahveh) it is most frequently quoted as Lord.
And that is precisely how verse 31 is rendered in Acts 2:20, “The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come” (KJV).
Joel 1:15 states,
Alas for the day! For the day of the LORD is at hand; It shall come as destruction from the Almighty”.
Zephaniah shows us,
The great day of the LORD is near; It is near and hastens quickly. The noise of the day of the LORD is bitter;
There the mighty men shall cry out. That day is a day of wrath, A day of trouble and distress, A day of devastation and desolation, A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, A day of trumpet and alarm Notice the trumpet mentioned here the same as Rev 1:10)
Against the fortified cities And against the high towers. "I will bring distress upon men, And they shall walk like blind men, Because they have sinned against the LORD; Their blood shall be poured out like dust, And their flesh like refuse" (Zephaniah 1:14-17).
Isaiah talks about the same time,
Wail, for the day of the LORD is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty. Therefore all hands will be limp, Every man's heart will melt, And they will be afraid. Pangs and sorrows will take hold of them; They will be in pain as a woman in childbirth; They will be amazed at one another;Their faces will be like flames.
Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger,To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine. "I will punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity; I will halt the arrogance of the proud, And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold, A man more than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens,And the earth will move out of her place, In the wrath of the LORD of hosts And in the day of His fierce anger” (Isaiah 13:6-13).
This does not sound like a day of worship, rather great judgment.
Protestant scholar J.A. Seiess wrote:
Revelation 1:1-3
John...says he "was in Spirit in the Lord's day," in which he beheld what he afterward wrote. What is meant by this "Lord's day"? Some answer, Sunday, the first day of the week; but I am not satisfied with this explanation...
the Scriptures nowhere call it "the Lord's day." None of the Christian writings for 100 years after Christ ever call it "the Lord's day." But there is a "Day of the Lord" largely treated of by prophets, apostles, and fathers, the meaning of which is abundantly clear and settled.
It is that day in which, Isaiah says, people shall hide in the rocks for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty; the day which Joel describes as the day of destruction from the Almighty, when the Lord shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem, and the heavens and the earth shall shake; the day to which the closing chapter of Malachi refers as the day that shall burn as an oven, and in which the Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in his wings;
the day which Paul proclaimed from Mars' Hill as that in which God will judge the world, concerning which he so earnestly exhorted the Thessalonians, and which was not to come until after a great apostasy from the faith, and the ripening of the wicked for destruction;
the day in the which, Peter says, the heavens shall be changed, the elements melt, the earth burn, and all present orders of things give way to new heavens and a new earth; even "the day for which all other days were made." And on that day I understand John to say, he in some sense was.
In the mysteries of prophetic rapport, which the Scriptures describe as "in Spirit," and which Paul declared inexplicable, he was caught out of himself, and out of his proper place and time, and stationed amid the stupendous scenes of the great day of God, and made to see the actors in them, and to look upon them transpiring before his eyes, that he might write what he saw, and give it to the churches.
This is what I understand by his being "in Spirit in the Lord's day." (from The Apocalypse: Exposition of the Book of Revelation, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1998, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
Most commentators completely misunderstand Revelation 1:10. As a result, they do not understand the perspective from which the entire book was written.
When John declared that he was in the Spirit in the Lord’s Day (Note that, elsewhere in the New Testament, the Greek word en is almost always translated "in," though many wrongly render it here as "on", he was not talking about the day of the week on which he received the prophecy.
Rather, he was describing the future prophetic time that he saw in vision—a time when God will intervene powerfully in end-time world affairs. John’s perspective in writing Revelation was this vision of the future (Ogywn J. Revelation The Mystery Unveiled!, 2006, p. 6).
Thus, it appears that many believe that the proper way to understand the expression ‘Lord’s Day’ in Revelation 1:10, is that it is not referring to a day of the week, but is referring to the Day of the Lord.
I would also like to note that it is not Bible language anywhere in Revelation to refer to the day of the week one received a vision. Also nowhere is the term "first day of the week" to describe a week day.
So therefore I conclude that based on Bible scripture to define scripture that this Day of the Lord is speaking of God's judgement of mankind.
Nowhere is it describing a worship day of any kind.
If you can show me scripture to back up that Rev.1:10 is referring to Sunday worship- Please show me.For more info:CLICK HERECOG Writer LinkIf you open your bible be led by the Holy spirit.
Let God own you.
Do not believe doctrines of men.
Prove all things for yourself.
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 1/17/2008 Posts: 4,039
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hmmm deeds of the law.......
have no other gods
make no idols
don't take the Lords' Name in vain
remember the sabbath
honor mom and dad
don't murder, adultry, lie, steal........
don't covet
yessir.........I want to be around someone who obeys the Ten Commamdments!
Jesus did the will of his father in heaven, we are to do the same........
Mark 3:33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
Psalms 40:
8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
John 4:
34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
Matthew 3:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
John 8:
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy law.
Ps 119:136
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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sumr0luv wrote:... Nowhere is it describing a worship day of any kind.
If you can show me scripture to back up that Rev.1:10 is referring to Sunday worship- Please show me. At rhe beginning of this conversation I told you that scripture doesn't tell us what this means.
That is why I introduced early Christian writings. To see how it was defined in historical writings of that time period.
I can play hard ball too, if you like.
Where in the new testament is the sabbath referred to as "The Lord's Day".
IN THOSE EXACT WORDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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paulwhut wrote:... yessir.........I want to be around someone who obeys the Ten Commamdments! ... Galatians 5:18 NIV
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
Romans 7:6 NIV
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Romans 8:4 NIV
in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 641
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stevelundgren wrote:candie wrote:
Jesus said to keep the Sabbath...
Hmm...
Where did he say that? Directly and specifically.
Your asking for direct and specific, when you claim that Jesus came to abolish the laws when he said he did not. Whe you decide top get direct and specific, I will be glad to return the favor. I can believe that you don't think, "Keep My Commandments", includes the Sabbath, since your looking for a loophole. You seem to have the misguided notion that not being under the law means freedom to remove the ones we don't like. It doesn't. It means that the Jews failed to keep the Sabbath and the Gentiles were to be an example for salvation through faith and not fear of punishment by breaking the law. Christians don't need to fear punishment. Christians are supposed to keep the Commandments out of love and faith, not fear. Jesus did not give Christians the right to break the Commandments and He did not tell Christians there will be only nine Commandments from that day on. He said If you love me, Keep my Commandments. Not wanting to keep all of the Commandments shows a lack of love and faith. Jesus said if we show love of God and love of brother,keeping the other Commandments will come naturally. If keeping the Sabbath doesn't come naturally to you, you are missing one of those loves.
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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So you admit that Jesus never said that? Good.
If you are keeping the sabbath, which day did God set aside and make holy as a day of rest?
Genesis 2:3 NIV
And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 4/21/2010 Posts: 1,457 Location: Michigan
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stevelundgren wrote:sumr0luv wrote:... Nowhere is it describing a worship day of any kind.
If you can show me scripture to back up that Rev.1:10 is referring to Sunday worship- Please show me. At rhe beginning of this conversation I told you that scripture doesn't tell us what this means.
That is why I introduced early Christian writings. To see how it was defined in historical writings of that time period.
I can play hard ball too, if you like.
Where in the new testament is the sabbath referred to as "The Lord's Day".
IN THOSE EXACT WORDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ok, Steve...just calm down. No reason to get all heated. Let's just have a civil reasoning with the scriptures here. Quote:You wrote: At rhe beginning of this conversation I told you that scripture doesn't tell us what this means. Yes. I know scripture doesn't support Sunday being the Lord's Day.
I showed you where there is other scripture speaking of the Lord's Day mentioned in Rev.1:10 and that these scripture show that Johns Revelation is speaking about the Judgement Day of God on all nations.
So in fact I showed you that scripture does show you what Rev. 1:10 means.
If John's Revelations was speaking of the day of the week it would have used bible language which is "the first day" to describe the day of the week.
nowhere in the Bible is the first day of the week referred to as the Lord's Day.
So to believe that this is what Rev. 1:10 is saying, in my opinion is not sound reasoning.
But you are free to believe that if you want. Just a much as I am free to believe with numerous scripture to back it up that the Lord's Day is the Judgement of all mankind.
The Sabbath is not referred to as the Lord's Day in the Bible (in those words) Because the Lord's Day in Rev. 1:10 is speaking about God's judgement on all mankind.
The Bible says that Christ is the Lord of the Sabbath:
Mark 2:27-28 (New King James Version)
27 And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28 Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.”
The Lords Day is not speaking of a day of the week or a worship day. But if you believe it is even after close examination of the scripture then there is no need for a reply we can just leave it at this.
You believe what you want and I believe what I want.For more info:CLICK HERECOG Writer LinkIf you open your bible be led by the Holy spirit.
Let God own you.
Do not believe doctrines of men.
Prove all things for yourself.
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 3/3/2008 Posts: 12,991
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sumr0luv wrote:... Yes. I know scripture doesn't support Sunday being the Lord's Day... That is NOT what I said. Don't patronize me OR put words in my mouth!
Just so we are clear... I COMPLETELY disagree with you.
And NO, you did NOT show scripture that proves that the Lord's Day and the Day of the Lord are the same thing.
That's just a sabbatarian smoke screen.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Galatians 4:16
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Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 641
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stevelundgren wrote:
So you admit that Jesus never said that? Good.
If you are keeping the sabbath, which day did God set aside and make holy as a day of rest?
Genesis 2:3 NIV
And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
Don't patronize me OR put words in My mouth. He did not set aside Saturday ro Sunday either for the Sabbath and I never said anything about what day the Sabbath should be on or what day Jesus kept the Sabbath. Jersus did say to keep all of the Commandments and the Sabbath is one of those Commandments. If It makes any difference I keep My Sabbath on Sunday. It really doesn't matter, but then it was all covered a thousand pages ago. You are going to have a tough time convincing any Christian that it is alright to break a Commandment. What day did God start His creation on? That might give You a hint as to the day He rested.
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 4/21/2010 Posts: 1,457 Location: Michigan
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stevelundgren wrote:The Lord's day
Almost all second-century Christians observed Sunday as a day of worship (not a day of required rest), rather than the Sabbath.[14] No matter what the original reason may have been for meeting on the first day of the week, Christians could have easily seen a biblical significance to that day: It was the day on which the risen Lord appeared to the disciples.[15] Of all the days of the week, only the first and the seventh were ever considered, and Sunday was quickly understood as the day for Christian worship.
Although a few Christians observed the Sabbath, Sunday was more distinctively Christian. It became the day on which believers worshiped the Lord, and the day became known in the second century as “the Lord's day [kuriake hemera].”[16] The term was so well known that the word for “day” became unnecessary — if a Christian wrote about the kuriake, readers would understand that Sunday was meant. This term therefore gives additional evidence that Sunday was the Christian day of worship in the second century.[17] Let us survey the evidence for this term.
In the late first century, John used kuriake hemera in Rev 1:10, but the meaning there is debated. In the early second century, Ignatius used kuriake alone, and textual variants cause the meaning to be debatable.[18] The Gospel of Peter 35 and 50 (middle second century) used kuriake to designate the day of Jesus' resurrection.[19] Eusebius reports that Dionysius of Corinth (c. 170) wrote, “Today we have kept the Lord's holy day [kuriake hagia hemera], on which we have read your letter.”[20] The Acts of Peter (last half of the second century) “clearly identifies dies dominica (`the Lord's Day' with `the next day after the Sabbath,' and the Acts of Paul [also last half of the second century] represents the apostle as praying `on the sabbath as the Lord's Day [kuriake alone] drew near' “[21] — both clearly referring to Sunday. Didache 14, which may date from the second half of the second century, referred to “the Lord's [day] of the Lord [kuriake de kuriou].”[22]
Clement of Alexandria (c. 190) also gives clear evidence that kuriake meant the eighth day, Sunday,[23] and he spoke of “keeping” the Lord's day.[24] He quoted a Valentinian Gnostic who equated the kuriake with the ogdoad, the eighth heaven.[25] “The same identification of kuriake, the eighth day, with the ogdoad, the eighth heaven, is found in the antignostic Epistula Apostolorum [also second century].”[26]
In summary, evidence for the use of “Lord's day” is clear for the latter half of the second century, but it is less clear for the first half. The terminology, however, is a secondary issue. The actual day observed by Christians is clear: Throughout the second century, all written evidence shows Christians rejecting the literal Sabbath and observing Sunday as the day for Christian worship.[27] Even in the early second century, Sunday-keeping was the norm throughout Christendom (except for Jewish sects) — with no trace of controversy or any evidence that the custom was a recent innovation. The church that began as a Sabbath-keeping group became a Sunday-keeping group that rejected literal Sabbath-keeping. Now let us explore how this change could have come about.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sabbath and Sunday in Early Christianity
Part 3: Irenaeus, and "the Lord's Day"
Irenaeus
Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons in the last half of the second century, also gives us lengthy comments on the Sabbath, and his views probably reflect those of Asia Minor, since that is where he was from. He had also been in Rome and may have been influenced by Justin Martyr. Irenaeus, commenting on the grainfield incident (Matt. 12), notes that Jesus did not break the Sabbath, but Irenaeus gives a rationale that applies to Christians, too:
The Lord...did not make void, but fulfilled the law, by performing the offices of the high priest...justifying His disciples by the words of the law, and pointing out that it was lawful for the priests to act freely [Mt 12:5]. For David had been appointed a priest by God, although Saul still persecuted him. For all the righteous possess the sacerdotal rank. And all the apostles of the Lord are priests.[1]
The implication is that, since all believers are priests, and priests are free to work on the Sabbath serving God, then Christians are free to work on the Sabbath. Regardless of the validity of his reasoning, he obviously did not believe that Christians had to keep the Sabbath. Just as circumcision was symbolic, he says, the Sabbath command was, too, typifying both morality and eschatology:
The Sabbaths taught that we should continue day by day in God's service...ministering continually to our faith, and persevering in it, and abstaining from all avarice, and not acquiring or possessing treasures upon earth. Moreover, the Sabbath of God, that is, the kingdom, was, as it were, indicated by created things; in which [kingdom], the man who shall have persevered in serving God shall, in a state of rest, partake of God's table.[2]
Irenaeus, like Justin, said that the patriarchs before Moses did not keep the Sabbath.[3] But he also said that they kept the Decalogue and that Christians also had to![4] This discrepancy can be explained in two ways. Bauckham suggests that Irenaeus used the term “Decalogue” loosely, as synonymous with the natural law, as suggested in 4.16.3.[5] Another possibility, which I prefer, is that Irenaeus considered a moral person to be de facto keeping the Sabbath command, as suggested in 4.16.1 and in another work: “Nor will he be commanded to leave idle one day of rest, who is constantly keeping sabbath, that is, giving homage to God in the temple of God, which is man's body, and at all times doing the works of justice.”[6]
As another item of evidence probably from the second century, let us consider the Gospel of Thomas 27: “If you do not fast as regards the world, you will not find the kingdom. If you do not observe the Sabbath as a Sabbath, you will not see the father.”[7] The meaning here is debatable, since Gnostics often gave words unusual meanings. Everything needed an “interpretation.”[8] This can be seen in Thomas 27. Fasting “as regards the world” does not mean ordinary fasting, but avoiding worldly sins. Similarly, it was not sufficient to say, “observe the Sabbath.” The words “as a Sabbath” may suggest an esoteric meaning, such as cessation of sin.[9]
Tertullian wrote in both the second century and in the third. Space does not permit a detailed evaluation of his works, nor is it necessary, since he agrees completely with Ignatius, Barnabas, Justin and Irenaeus. He rejected the literal Sabbath,[10] said that the Patriarchs did not observe it,[11] interpreted it in terms of morals [12]and worshipped on Sunday.[13] He gives yet more evidence that second-century Christians had abandoned the Sabbath and observed Sunday as the day for Christian worship.
[1] Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4.8.2-3; ANF 1:471.
[2] Ibid., 4.16.1; ANF 1:481. He called the future kingdom “the seventh day...the true Sabbath of the righteous” in 5.33.2 (ANF 1:562).
[3] Ibid., 4.16.2; ANF 1:481.
[4] “If any one does not observe [the Decalogue], he has no salvation” (4.15.1; ANF 1:479). “The righteous fathers had the meaning of the Decalogue written in their hearts and souls, that is, they loved the God who made them, and did no injury to their neighbor. There was therefore no occasion that they should be cautioned by prohibitory mandates, because they had the righteousness of the law in themselves” (4.16.3; ANF 1:481).
[5] “Extant example of early Christian paraenesis based on the Decalogue show that it was used with considerable selectiveness and flexibility, and normally with reference only to the second table.... The Decalogue is a less precise term than we expect it to be. It may be that Irenaeus and Ptolemaeus were so used to the flexible and selective use of the Decalogue in Christian paraenesis that the term suggested to them not so much ten individual commandments to be mentally listed, but simply the moral law” (Bauckham, pp. 267-9).
[6] Irenaeus, Proof of the Apostolic Preaching 96 (Joseph P. Smith, trans. Ancient Christian Writers [Westminster, Md.: Newman Press, 1952], vol. 16, p. 105). This passage in Proof of the Apostolic Preaching illustrates Irenaeus' understanding of the law:
He does not wish those who are to be redeemed to be brought again under the Mosaic legislation ‑‑‑ for the law has been fulfilled by Christ ‑‑‑ but to go free in newness by the Word, through faith and love towards the Son of God.... We have no need of the law as pedagogue.... For no more shall the law say: “Thou shalt not commit adultery,” to him who has not even conceived the desire of another man's wife; or “thou shalt not kill,” to him who has put away from himself all anger and enmity.... Nor will it demand tithes of him who has vowed to God all his possessions, and who leaves father and mother and all his kindred, and follows the Word of God. Nor will he be commanded to leave idle one day of rest, who is constantly keeping sabbath, that is giving homage to God in the temple of God, which is man's body, and at all times doing the works of justice. (89, 95-96; ACW 16:103, 105)
The point it that if a man does not lust, he does not need a command about adultery because he is already obeying it. Likewise, in Irenaeus' thought, if a man is always acting justly, he does not need a command about the Sabbath, because he is always obeying it.
[7] James Robinson, ed. The Nag Hammadi Library in English (San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1988), p. 129.
[8] Thomas 1; Robinson, p. 126.
[9] “The metaphorical sense of the logion in its surviving version depends entirely on the words ton kosmou [as regards the world].... By means of this emendation an originally literal requirement to keep the Jewish Sabbath has become a metaphorical command to keep some form of spiritual Sabbath” (Bauckham, p. 265).
[10] Apology 21; ANF 3:36 and Against Marcion 1:20; 5.19; ANF 3:285, 471.
[11] An Answer to the Jews 2; ANF 3:153.
[12] An Answer to the Jews 4; ANF 3:155.
[13] Apology 16; ANF 3:31; and On Idolatry 14; ANF 3:70.
[14] The Ebionites and Nazarenes were the primary exceptions. But they were clearly heterodox ‑‑‑ they rejected Jesus' virgin birth and the apostle Paul, and they required circumcision and other laws of Moses. The New Testament shows the early church fighting on two broad fronts: libertine antinomianism on one side and legalistic Judaizing on the other. In the second century, these groups are represented by Gnostics on the libertine side, and Ebionites on the Judaistic side. The Ebionites were spiritual, if not genetic, descendants of the Pharisee Christians who wanted Gentile believers to be circumcised and to keep the law of Moses (Ac 15:5). The Sunday-keeping majority cannot be called libertine. If anything, they tended to be strict.
[15] Bauckham writes: “Whether the choice of Sunday was originally a matter of mere convenience or whether it was initially chosen as the day of the Resurrection, there can be no doubt that it was soon associated with the Resurrection, and only this can really account for the fact that worship on Sunday acquired normative status throughout the Christian world” (p. 240).
[16] The genitive form, “day of the Lord [h_mera tou kuriou],” could not be used because it already had a different technical meaning in the Septuagint (cf. Bauckham, p. 225).
[17] “Another evidence of the early observance of Sunday is the fact that Christians frequently referred to it as the Lord's day during the second century.... The designation `eighth day' was very popular among Christians in the second and third centuries; however, the most common Christian term for Sunday was `Lord's day.' The term `Lord's day' was in wide use by the end of the second century and may also have been in use near the beginning of it” (Maxwell, p. 139).
[18] Neither Barnabas nor Justin use the term Lord's day, “but they use instead the designations `eighth day' and `Sunday' for the first day of the week.... Their specific Sunday statements are in [apologetic] contexts that would preclude their use of this term even if they were acquainted with it” (Strand, p. 347).
[19] Bauckham, as with other texts, is cautious: “It is clear that kuriak_ is already an accepted technical term and refers to a day, but the nature of the context makes impossible a final decision between Sunday and Easter” (p. 229). Irenaeus may have used kuriak_ in fragment 7, but it may not be his word, and it may refer to Easter (“Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus” 7, ANF 1:569-70; Strand, p. 346-7).
[20] Bauckham is again cautious: “A reference to weekly Sunday worship seems very probable but not certain” (p. 229, citing Eusebius' History 4.23.11).
[21] Bauckham, p. 229, citing Act. Verc. 29.
[22] Maxwell, pp. 106-108, and Bauckham, p. 227-228.
[23] Miscellanies 5:14; ANF 2:469.
[24] Ibid., 7:12; ANF 2:545.
[25] Exc. ex Theod. 63:1, quoted in Bauckham, p. 230; Irenaeus mentioned the Gnostic ogdoad in Against Heresies 1.5.3 (ANF 1:323). It is difficult to interpret their numerology: “The eighth may possibly turn out to be properly the seventh, and the seventh manifestly the sixth, and the latter properly the Sabbath, and the seventh a day of work” (Miscellanies 6:16; ANF 2:512).
Clement explained the “rest” of the Fourth Commandment as “abstraction from ills” and as impassibility in preparation for the eschaton (ibid.). In this, he agreed with his Gnostic opponents. Epiphanius said that the Valentinian Ptolemaeus taught that Jesus rejected the literal Sabbath and that Ptolemaeus interpreted the Sabbath as commanding “us to be idle with reference to evil actions' “ (Bauckham, pp. 265-6, citing Epiphanius, Pan. 33:3:5:1-13). Clement also used a similar interpretation for the Lord's day: “He...keeps the Lord's day when he abandons an evil disposition” (Miscellanies 7:12; ANF 2:545).
[26] Bauckham, p. 274. On p. 223, Bauckham cites Epistula Apostolorum 18. He also cites “Melito of Sardis, ap. Eusebius HE 4:23:12,” but I could not find this in an English translation of Eusebius 4:23:12, nor did Bauckham discuss this text in his chapter.
[27] Bauckham writes:
All second-century references to the Sabbath commandment either endorse the metaphorical interpretation or reject the literal interpretation as Judaistic or do both.... For all these writers the literal commandment to rest one day in seven was a temporary ordinance for Israel alone. The Christian fulfills the commandment by devoting all his time to God.... No writer of the period betrays any thought of its being a provision for needed physical rest (pp. 269, 266).
A Seventh-day Adventist agrees with this historical assessment:
It is unhistorical to say that the early fathers were `silent' about the Sabbath. They were not silent about it, and what they had to say was hostile to literal Sabbath keeping.... A careful analysis of the four most noteworthy authors who dealt with the Sabbath in the second and early third centuries, Barnabas, Justin, Irenaeus, and Tertullian, reveals a great unanimity of attitude toward the literal Sabbath. To a man, they opposed it. This is very significant, partly because Barnabas and Justin represented Christian attitudes as early as the 130s, and partly because these four writers encircled the Mediterranean basin: Barnabas in Alexandria, Justin first in Asia and then in Rome, Irenaeus first in Asia and then in Gaul, Tertullian for a while in Rome and then in Carthage (Maxwell, pp. 154-7).
Source
Steve, I don't mean to sound comabative. But frankly these are all ideas of men. This one said this and this one said that. This is how early Christians decided to abandon the Sabbath.? On words of men?
None of these men were inspired or given authority from God. To make these claims. This is not the inspired word of God.
As christians we have to be careful not to take our doctrines from men. But always from the Holy scripture.
I would rather take Christ's words and example as well as the men He gave authority to preach the gospel then I would some secular teaching that arose centuries after Christ.
There are allot of men since Christ's time who have come proclaiming Christ but the truth is not in them. This is what the Bible warned about. The Apostasy of the faith.
The only authority we have that we can measure whether something be true or false concerning God, is from the Bible.
If it does not measure up with the Holy scriptures then it cannot be relied on as truth and doctrine.
What this showed me is that men at some point decided for themselves how to worship God. They abandoned the Sabbath, most likely because of antisemitism (sp)? and not wanting to be seen as Jews.
Where was any scripture given as authority for change?For more info:CLICK HERECOG Writer LinkIf you open your bible be led by the Holy spirit.
Let God own you.
Do not believe doctrines of men.
Prove all things for yourself.
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 4/21/2010 Posts: 1,457 Location: Michigan
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stevelundgren wrote:sumr0luv wrote:... Yes. I know scripture doesn't support Sunday being the Lord's Day... That is NOT what I said. Don't patronize me OR put words in my mouth!
Just so we are clear... I COMPLETELY disagree with you.
And NO, you did NOT show scripture that proves that the Lord's Day and the Day of the Lord are the same thing.
That's just a sabbatarian smoke screen.
It is clear that you completely disagree with me.
And I think I did give sufficient evidence. I guess that will be up to other readers to decide.
I don't feel I was patronizing you or putting words in your mouth. I'm sorry you feel that way.
And I didn't mean to get you angry.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. For more info:CLICK HERECOG Writer LinkIf you open your bible be led by the Holy spirit.
Let God own you.
Do not believe doctrines of men.
Prove all things for yourself.
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