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Quote: Originally posted by dsmdaryl on 18 May 2008
MKeffer, I think you err to set the Jews up on a pedastal like you do. The Jews have no higher place than the Levites, Ephraim, or any other tribe of Israel. The people you refer to as Jews who are occupying Jerusalem have questionable orgins, to put it nicely. The religious leaning of these people is towards Judaism, which is a completely different religion, and at odds, with Biblical Christianity.
I’m not defending Paulwuts interpretations of the Scripture, but maybe you should take a good look at who God’s chosen people really are. I’ll give you a hint, it’s not the people occupying Israel.
Well now you’ve opened a can of worms. I would disagree with you. In my mind and heart the Jews have never stopped being the chosen people.
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God has given an unfailing formula for the destruction of Israel. If you want Israel to cease being a nation, then God has indicated exactly what must take place. Every Jew-hating Muslim and every anti-Semitic Arab who is bent upon the destruction of Israel should diligently study these passages of Scripture, for in them is the secret of Israel’s demise. Also every Christian leader who denies that the nation Israel has a wonderful future in their land, under their Messiah, according to all the kingdom prophecies given by the prophets, should give serious consideration to what God has said must happen if Israel is to cease being a nation before Him. Jeremiah 31:35-36 35: Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: 36: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. God has appointed the sun to shine by day and He has appointed the moon and stars to shine by night. He also stirs up the sea so that its waves roar (see NIV translation of Jeremiah 31:35-36). God says that if these ordinances depart from before Him, then will the seed (descendants) of Israel cease from being a nation before Him! The Jewish people can take great comfort from this promise. Every day when they see the sun, every night when they see the moon and stars, every visit to the ocean when they see the waves in action---they can know that their preservation as a people is secure! The enemies of Israel need to change their strategy! Instead of aiming their mighty weapons of destruction upon the Jews and Jerusalem, they need to aim their missiles at the sun, moon and stars! They could start with the moon and try to knock it out of orbit! Instead of spending time in their secret laboratories trying to figure out how to deliver chemical weapons, they need to devise a plan to neutralize the waves of the ocean! But as long as the waves are roaring, and the sun, moon and stars are shining, Israel’s future is secure! Jeremiah 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured...I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD If the enemies of the Jews get frustrated by trying to vaporize the heavenly bodies and trying to neutralize the waves of the ocean, then God has another strategy which is guaranteed to destroy the Jews. All they need to do is measure the heaven above! The vastness of heaven (the second heaven, that is, the universe) is beyond the comprehension of our feeble minds. Scientists, now equipped with the Hubble telescope, tell us that there are at least 10 times more stars in the universe than there are grains of sand in all the beaches of the world! And yet, the further we look into the vast expanse of space, the more stars we see. The universe cannot be measured by man, nor can the stars be counted. The enemies of Israel again need to abandon their hostile attacks against Israel, and start to develop bigger and better telescopes! Because only then will God cast off all the seed (descendants) of Israel. Israel’s future is secure until they are successful! Jeremiah 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If...the foundations of the earth [can be] searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD If looking up and measuring the heavens seems to be a task too great, then the enemies of the Jews can look down and seek to search out the earth beneath! Man’s greatest efforts at searching the earth beneath and digging and drilling into it have barely scratched the surface! But if man can dig to the center of the earth, then God will cast off the seed (descendants) of Israel. The enemies of Israel, having failed to obliterate the sun, moon and stars, having failed to neutralize the roaring waves of the ocean, having failed to measure the universe and count all the stars, still have one remaining solution if they are to destroy Israel. They had better start passing out shovels! For further study see Jeremiah 33:19-26. Those Christians who teach that the nation Israel has no future in the plan and purpose of God must face the same gargantuan obstacles as outlined above. How much better to simply take God at His Word and understand Israel’s kingdom promises in the normal and natural and obvious sense. That Israel has a glorious future centered in the kingdom of the Messiah is clearly seen in this passage: Jeremiah 23:5  5: Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. 6: In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7: Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; 8: But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land God’s Promise to Israel For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished (Jeremiah 30:11). Todah Rabah! Good evening to those who are anti-semitic and biblcally illiterate. May your sleep be ever unpleasant.
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I agree with mkeffer in principle. God has not given up on Israel to receive the Gentiles. We are grafted in, co-heirs with the Jews.
I do, however, disagree with you mkeffer, for putting curses on anyone. If you would be so kind as to undo the curse with a blessing; I would appreciate it. (As would those you have cursed.)
All Israel Will Be Saved
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Romans 11:25-32
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Are you all equating the Jews with Israel? There is no doubt there is a remnant of the tribe of Judah left ni the world, and with those people I take no issue, they are but one of the tribes of Israel. Where is the rest of Israel? There are 13 tribes in all.
The Apostles were given to go to the lost tribes of Israel (Judah included) to preach the good news. These were the people captured by the Assyrians. They were dispersed from Assyria and went out into the world.
God had a plan for these people (all of Israel, not just the tribe of Judah, or those who call themselves jews) and told them he would regather them in a new land. A land of milk and honey. A land between 2 seas. The nation of Israel is NOT that land. There is no way you can deduce from the Bible, history, and geography that the nation of Israel is the land of the regathering of the tribes of Israel.
If you want to see to whom God’s promises pertain, try looking at yourselves. You who come from Irish, English, German, and other fair complected backgrounds. The tribes that were dispersed left a trail from Assyria north and west into the European nations, and further westward yet into the new Zion of America. This is the land of the regathering. This is the land God gave to the Israelites.
Even our ancestors knew they were the people to whom the promises were made. Christopher Columbus was quoted as saying, " Fully accomplished were the words of Isaiah." (Isaiah 43:6) When writing to King Ferdinand.
The lost tribes were never re-gathered in Israel. A remnant of Judah was left, as to that there is no doubt, but the vast majority of those claiming jewry are of a different stock than that of Biblical Judah.
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The following short exerp is taken from chapter 77, "The Desire of Ages"....: " Again Pilate proposed to release the Saviour. "But the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar’s friend." Thus these hypocrites pretended to be jealous for the authority of Caesar. Of all the opponents of the Roman rule, the Jews were most bitter. When it was safe for them to do so, they were most tyrannical in enforcing their own national and religious requirements; but when they desired to bring about some purpose of cruelty, they exalted the power of Caesar. To accomplish the destruction of Christ, they would profess loyalty to the foreign rule which they hated. {DA 737.3} "Whosoever maketh himself a king," they continued, "speaketh against Caesar." This was touching Pilate in a weak point. He was under suspicion by the Roman government, and he knew that such a report would be ruin to him. He knew that if the Jews were thwarted, their rage would be turned against him. They would leave nothing undone to accomplish their revenge. He had before him an example of the persistence with which they sought the life of One whom they hated without reason. {DA 737.4} Pilate then took his place on the judgment seat, and again presented Jesus to the people, saying, "Behold your King!" Again the mad cry was heard, "Away with Him, crucify Him." In a voice that was heard far and near, Pilate asked, "Shall I crucify your King?" But from profane, blasphemous lips went forth the words, "We have no king but Caesar." {DA 737.5} Thus by choosing a heathen ruler, the Jewish nation had withdrawn 738 from the theocracy. They had rejected God as their king. Henceforth they had no deliverer. They had no king but Caesar. To this the priests and teachers had led the people. For this, with the fearful results that followed, they were responsible. A nation’s sin and a nation’s ruin were due to the religious leaders. {DA 737.6} "When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just Person: see ye to it." In fear and self-condemnation Pilate looked upon the Saviour. In the vast sea of upturned faces, His alone was peaceful. About His head a soft light seemed to shine. Pilate said in his heart, He is a God. Turning to the multitude he declared, I am clear of His blood. Take ye Him, and crucify Him. But mark ye, priests and rulers, I pronounce Him a just man. May He whom He claims as His Father judge you and not me for this day’s work. Then to Jesus he said, Forgive me for this act; I cannot save You. And when he had again scourged Jesus, he delivered Him to be crucified. {DA 738.1} It is my understanding that the book "The Desire of Ages" is the most used book in the library. The Library of Congress. It has been translated into many languages. And I have read it twice at least. I was first published in 1911 and is available in braille and audio as well. " When Pilate declared himself innocent of the blood of Christ, Caiaphas answered defiantly, "His blood be on us, and on our children." The awful words were taken up by the priests and rulers, and echoed by the crowd in an inhuman roar of voices. The whole multitude answered and said, "His blood be on us, and on our children." {DA 738.4} The people of Israel had made their choice. Pointing to Jesus they 739 had said, "Not this man, but Barabbas." Barabbas, the robber and murderer, was the representative of Satan. Christ was the representative of God. Christ had been rejected; Barabbas had been chosen. Barabbas they were to have. In making this choice they accepted him who from the beginning was a liar and a murderer. Satan was their leader. As a nation they would act out his dictation. His works they would do. His rule they must endure. That people who chose Barabbas in the place of Christ were to feel the cruelty of Barabbas as long as time should last. {DA 738.5} Looking upon the smitten Lamb of God, the Jews had cried, "His blood be on us, and on our children." That awful cry ascended to the throne of God. That sentence, pronounced upon themselves, was written in heaven. That prayer was heard. The blood of the Son of God was upon their children and their children’s children, a perpetual curse. {DA 739.1} Terribly was it realized in the destruction of Jerusalem. Terribly has it been manifested in the condition of the Jewish nation for eighteen hundred years,--a branch severed from the vine, a dead, fruitless branch, to be gathered up and burned. From land to land throughout the world, from century to century, dead, dead in trespasses and sins! {DA 739.2} Terribly will that prayer be fulfilled in the great judgment day. When Christ shall come to the earth again, not as a prisoner surrounded by a rabble will men see Him. They will see Him then as heaven’s King. Christ will come in His own glory, in the glory of His Father, and the glory of the holy angels. Ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands of angels, the beautiful and triumphant sons of God, possessing surpassing loveliness and glory, will escort Him on His way. Then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory, and before Him shall be gathered all nations. Then every eye shall see Him, and they also that pierced Him. In the place of a crown of thorns, He will wear a crown of glory,--a crown within a crown. In place of that old purple kingly robe, He will be clothed in raiment of whitest white, "so as no fuller on earth can white them." Mark 9:3. And on His vesture and on His thigh a name will be written, "King of kings, and Lord of lords." Revelation 19:16. Those who mocked and smote Him will be there. The priests and rulers will behold again the scene in the judgment hall. Every circumstance will appear before them, as if written in letters of fire. Then those who prayed, "His blood be on us, and on our children," will receive the answer to their prayer. Then the whole world will know 740 and understand. They will realize who and what they, poor, feeble, finite beings, have been warring against. In awful agony and horror they will cry to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: for the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" Revelation 6:16, 17. {DA 739.3} Many wonder today why the Republican party does nothing to defeat the treasonous
schemes of the Democrats. It is because the pope’s Jesuits have thoroughly
infiltrated the Republican party as well as the Democratic party. Many wonder why
the news media lie so much to support and protect the Democrats. It is because the
pope’s Jesuits have thoroughly infiltrated the news media. The news media and
schools and colleges, with their lies and propaganda, have so conditioned the
people of the country that they are unable to recognize what has been done to them.
Victory for the Jesuits seems very near. The Jesuits are like a cancer that has
pervaded nearly every fiber of the society of the United States. We are being
defeated by the enemy within.
For many years the Jesuits have prevented the United States from developing
additional sources of energy within its own territory. Exploiting the vast oilfields on
the Alaskan north slope, that probably contain more oil than the entire middle east,
is forbidden. New nuclear power plants, the safest source of electric energy ever
discovered, are not permitted. There is no end to the lies people have been made to
believe about Nuclear energy. The environment is used as the club to subdue the
people of the country into going along with this idiocy. Modern technology is able to
develop these sources of power without any damage to the environment. France
gets 80% of its power from nuclear power plants without any problems. Needless to
say, without sufficient energy, the United States will not be able to defend itself. All
the papacy has to do is cut off the oil supply from the middle east.
The United States is now starting to feel the pinch of the energy shortage the Jesuits
have created. People have experienced blackouts over large areas as power is shut
off to stay within the limits of generating capacity. Today, instead of constructing
additional nuclear power plants, some of these plants are being dismantled! Will the
people of the United States be able to wake up in time to prevent the coming
national tragedy?
Not only in the United States is this treachery being perpetrated by the papacy, but
they are secretly at work all over the world to subvert all the nations of the world.
"And all the world wondered after the beast." Rev 13:3 last part.
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Once again paulwhut you demonstrate a lack of knowledge of the Bible and ignore the plain teaching of scripture. You are embarrassing yourself.
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Quote: Originally posted by dsmdaryl on 19 May 2008
Are you all equating the Jews with Israel? There is no doubt there is a remnant of the tribe of Judah left ni the world, and with those people I take no issue, they are but one of the tribes of Israel. Where is the rest of Israel? There are 13 tribes in all.
The Apostles were given to go to the lost tribes of Israel (Judah included) to preach the good news. These were the people captured by the Assyrians. They were dispersed from Assyria and went out into the world.
God had a plan for these people (all of Israel, not just the tribe of Judah, or those who call themselves jews) and told them he would regather them in a new land. A land of milk and honey. A land between 2 seas. The nation of Israel is NOT that land. There is no way you can deduce from the Bible, history, and geography that the nation of Israel is the land of the regathering of the tribes of Israel.
If you want to see to whom God’s promises pertain, try looking at yourselves. You who come from Irish, English, German, and other fair complected backgrounds. The tribes that were dispersed left a trail from Assyria north and west into the European nations, and further westward yet into the new Zion of America. This is the land of the regathering. This is the land God gave to the Israelites.
Even our ancestors knew they were the people to whom the promises were made. Christopher Columbus was quoted as saying, " Fully accomplished were the words of Isaiah." (Isaiah 43:6) When writing to King Ferdinand.
The lost tribes were never re-gathered in Israel. A remnant of Judah was left, as to that there is no doubt, but the vast majority of those claiming jewry are of a different stock than that of Biblical Judah.
Where are you getting this information? It sounds inside out and backwards to me. Are you in the LDS church or an Anglo/British-Israelist? Please provide scripture for the listed points below: 1) "The Apostles were given to go to the lost tribes of Israel (Judah included) to preach the good news." 2) "A land of milk and honey. A land between 2 seas. The nation of Israel is NOT that land." 3) "...the new Zion of America. This is the land of the regathering. This is the land God gave to the Israelites." 4) I imagine there is no biblical defense for paragraphs 1 and 6.
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I have gleaned it from the Bible, from history books, archaeological books, etc. I’m in no organized church really. Self study is basically it.
1) Matthew 10:5-6 and Matthew 15:24
2 and 3 I’ll get back to you later tonite about. That’s a little more involved than I have time for right now, nor do I have that information handy.
4) History tells us that after the Babylonian empire was overthrown by the Persians, that the Judeans were allowed to return to thier land. Many stayed in Babylon because they were treated very well there, only about 50,000 returned to Palestine. These were the remnant of Judah. When they returned they found that Edomites had settled the land, as did the Babylonians who came back after Cyrus overthrew Babylon (with Judah), and the Mongol-Turk tribes further mixed into the population further mixing in with the bloodlines of Judah, (this is my speculationg) and corrupted their religion with that of the Babylonian Mystery religion. I think this is how they came to get the Talmud. I have no proof for that though.
Steve, I know how it sounds. Trust me.lol I remember when I first started coming across this information I was like, "ok, next." But I kept running across it and started studying deeper into it. I’ve been studying this subject for 4 years, and have only within the last year really become fully convinced. I treat it like any other subject in the Bible. I even study those things which most church-goin folks just accept (trinity, baptism, grace, law, etc). I need to test everything before I incorporate it into my beliefs. So please don’t think me ignorant of this topic, and write it off, I’ve done my homework. (and still am)
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An awful lot of stepping on toes here at the god dance.TeeHee.
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Got time to add to this. I’ll add to #1: The Epistle of James is addressed to the 12 tribes scattered aboad. Peter also wrote unto those who were scattered among the lands. 1 Peter 1 and 2 #2 and #3 II Samuel 7:10, since the Israelites were in Palestine at the time of this writing, God must have been referring to somewhere else. Jeremiah 23:3 States that God will gather his flock from the countries in which they are scattered to a land of their own. After the fall of Assyria the tribes trecked north, they went through the Caucus mountains (this is where we get the term Caucasion) across Eurpoe towards the British Isles. Now once America was founded, where did the majority of the people come from? Britain, Ireland, Germany, etc.... these people are all of the same heritage. We had others coming in too, but the vast majority were caucasians. This is where all the different tribes eventually ended up after the dispersion. It’s commonly regarded in everything I’ve read that America is tied to the tribe Manasseh and Britain is commonly regarded as of the tribe of Ephraim. God warned Israel that he would punish her 7 times (360 years is a time) if she continued in her sin. If you Take 360 times 7 you get 2520 years. I take it you know Israel didn’t repent and was punished. If you count from the time that Manasseh went into captivity you come to 1776, the year America became a nation, the year Manasseh’s punishment ended. If you go 2520 years from the start of Ephraims captivity you get 1881, the year Great Britain became a Commonwealth. Benjamin was last. From the time Benjamin was exiled add 2520 years and you see Iceland become an independent nation, and even members of Icelands Parliment ackowledged they were of the tribe of Benjamin. Dr. Adam Rutherford, F.R. G.S., had predicted the nations independence years before, and everyone laughed at him since Denmark controlled Iceland. Even our national symbols on the One Dollar bill are symbols that Manasseh carried. Remember that the tribe of Manasseh is the 13th tribe. On our 1 Dollar bill we have an Olive branch of 13 leaves, 13 Arrows. Manassehs primary and secondary emblems were, you guessed it, the olive branch and a bundle of arrows. I’m leaving ALOT out, but I think that should be enough to give it sober consideration. As for those who call themselves Jews, Jesus spoke well when he chastised these saying: 44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. You may find it outlandish that I don’t believe the Jews to be "God’s Chosen", but I don’t see how anyone can think they are.
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Quote: Originally posted by dsmdaryl on 19 May 2008
I have gleaned it from the Bible, from history books, archaeological books, etc. I’m in no organized church really. Self study is basically it.
1) Matthew 10:5-6 and Matthew 15:24
... So please don’t think me ignorant of this topic, and write it off, I’ve done my homework. (and still am)
dsmdaryl, The question was: 1) "The Apostles were given to go to the lost tribes of Israel (Judah included) to preach the good news." Your answer was: "1) Matthew 10:5-6 and Matthew 15:24" How can you say you have done your homework when you are using these scriptures out of context? Neither of these cases were long-term commissions, but rather short-term assignments. Even Jesus changed these short-term instructions to the Disciples in the Great Commission. (I am aware that the term "Great Commission" is not in the Bible, so don’t even go there.) Jesus Sends Out the Twelve 1 He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness. 2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him. 5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, preach this message: ’The kingdom of heaven is near.’ 8Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9 Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts; 10 take no bag for the journey, or extra tunic, or sandals or a staff; for the worker is worth his keep. Matthew 10:1-10 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." 23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." 24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." 25 The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. 26 He replied, "It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs." 27 "Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table." 28 Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour. Matthew 15:22-28
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I don’t see how you think it’s out of context at all. I never said it was a long-term command either. I was establishing the point that these people were of continued importance to God. The News was to go forth first to Israel. There must be some sort of reason he made the distinction, do you not agree? Why not just say, "Hey guys, go tell everyone"? He only enlarged that command after the resurrection. Regardless, of reason, the distinction was still made.
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Quote: Originally posted by dsmdaryl on 19 May 2008
I don’t see how you think it’s out of context at all. I never said it was a long-term command either. I was establishing the point that these people were of continued importance to God. The News was to go forth first to Israel. There must be some sort of reason he made the distinction, do you not agree? Why not just say, "Hey guys, go tell everyone"? He only enlarged that command after the resurrection. Regardless, of reason, the distinction was still made.
You said, "The Apostles were given to go to the lost tribes of Israel (Judah included) to preach the good news." I don’t think they weren’t called "The Apostles" until the book of Acts. The scripture you gave from the Gospels said "lost sheep". When Jesus sent the twelve disciples out, he said DON’T go to the Samaritans or Gentiles. Jesus also said, that He was not called to the Samaritans or Gentiles. How do you make a case for Europeans being Israel out of that?
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Do you really want to try to sidetrack the point by argueing Apostles or Disciples? How about just the 12 dudes that followed Yashua around. Is that better? Who do you think the ’lost sheep’ refers to?
The case for Europeans being Israel is documented by the Assyrian tablets and other writings about their movements. I wasn’t trying to do that, I was just making the point the "jews" arent the chosen people, most aren’t even of Judah. By tracing the steps of the Israelites from the dispersion, it’s becomes obvious they can’t be.
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The cult of British Israelitism, founded in the 19th century, is not based on truth, but on biased biblically-inspired interpretations. Brit-Am has the preconceived notion that Western Europeans are Israelites and then tries simplistically to tailor information and names to suit that idea.
It’s one thing to say that some Western Europeans have a small amount of Israelite ancestry. It’s quite another to suggest that their principal origins are in Israel. I believe the former is true, but the latter is definitely false. When people speak about part of Spain’s Christian population descending partly from Sephardim who were forced to become Catholics, it’s true. But Celtic Welsh people, Germanic Frisian & English people, etc. can’t be shown to have any connection to Israelites whatsoever. Nor American Indians (the Mormons’ pet theory).
"The true spiritual Israel, and descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham . . . are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ."
That erroneous statement was written by a Christian who addressed himself to a Jewish man as they debated about Christianity. He later added, "We who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ are the true Israelitic race."
The debate occurred almost 1,900 years ago (A.D. 155) between Justin Martyr and his Jewish opponent, Trypho.
In a mere 50 years after the last book of the New Testament was written, Gentile Christians had already come to believe that their church had replaced the Jewish people in God’s program and that the only thing the Jewish nation could look forward to was condemnation.
"AM YISRAEL CHAI!" "THE JEWISH PEOPLE LIVE ON!"
All of this goes to the heart of the question, What is the basis for Jewish identity? We hereby submit that the Lord God of Israel Himself has set the standard for Jewish identity. When God called Avraham Avinu (Abraham our Father) to be the first "Hebrew", He made a covenant with him and his descendants Isaac and Jacob which clearly outlines the true basis for Jewish identity.
That sacred covenental promise is known as the "Abrahamic Covenant". This covenant is much older than the "Mosaic Covenant" and is actually the written form of the statement and promise of God whereby He creates the nation of Israel, the Jewish people, starting with Avraham. (The Bible largely uses the terms "Israel" and "Jewish" interchangeably, they’re the same people in spite of what some "new winds of doctrine" might mistakenly teach.)
Think on these things.
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Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 220,401
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The Bible does not use "Israel" and "jewish" interchangably. If you believe that to be true, you must either have no access to a Strong’s Concordance or don’t know how to use it. There are huge distinctions between the tribe of Judah, the Israelites, and people who live in Judea.
These people you are trying to defend, by their own evil book, claim Jesus is in hell boiling in a pot of his own excrement. They sure are awful holy people huh?
You want the link, get a book called "Missing Links Discovered in Assyrian Tablets" By E. Raymond Capt. You may also try a book called "God’s Covenant People" By Ted Weiland. The first will show you the evidence of who Israel is and where they are now, and the migrations they went through. The second will show you even by the Jews’ own hand that they aren’t, nor could they be, a chosen people.
I’m not gonna argue about it. If you want to call it cultic or anti-semetic, thats your problem. But if you don’t want to take the time and do the research you are only defending what you’ve been told to believe. Either way, I’m not going to take it any further. I hope some of you look into it.
I’ll leave you with this:
""Strictly speaking, it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a "Jew" or to call a contemporary Jew an "Israelite" or a "Hebrew."
"IDENTITY CRISIS," The Jewish Almanac , compiled and edited by Richard Siegel and Carl Rheins (New York, NY: Bantam Books, 1980) p. 3
This fact is confirmed by several other Jewish sources such as The Jewish Encyclopedia (1905), The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia (1941), the Encyclopaedia Judaica (1971), The New Standard Jewish Encyclopedia (1977), as well as individual Jewish authors such as Nathan M. Pollock, Professor of Medieval Jewish History of Tel Aviv, Bernard Lazare, Robert Quillan, Dr. Benjamin Freedman, Arthur Koestler, James Yaffe, Paul Meyer and many more""
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Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 7/1/2008
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Quote: Originally posted by dsmdaryl on 19 May 2008
Do you really want to try to sidetrack the point by argueing Apostles or Disciples? How about just the 12 dudes that followed Yashua around. Is that better? Who do you think the ’lost sheep’ refers to?...
In context, "lost sheep" refers to those living in Israel at the time Jesus and his disciples were ministering. The instructions were given just before he sent them out, the very day they were sent. He did not send them out to the "lost tribes". Matthew 10:5-6
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Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 7/1/2008
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I’ll just play (forgive the expression) devils advocate and say, your right. There is still the opening to James, he specifically addresses his letter to the 12 tribes. Like I said before, I’m dropping it. If you want to write it off, thats fine. My intent is to just show that maybe things aren’t the way they seem or the way they are made out to be. Take it how it is. As Paul Harvey would say..."good-day"
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Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 220,401
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Quote: Originally posted by dsmdaryl on 19 May 2008
I’ll just play (forgive the expression) devils advocate and say, your right. There is still the opening to James, he specifically addresses his letter to the 12 tribes. Like I said before, I’m dropping it. If you want to write it off, thats fine. My intent is to just show that maybe things aren’t the way they seem or the way they are made out to be. Take it how it is. As Paul Harvey would say..."good-day"
Alright, we will accept that as a conditional surrender. (humor) I agree with what you are saying about James, except that the tribes are not lost, they are scattered. And the phrase used is "scattered among". Which to me means they have not lost their identity but are a subgroup of the whole rather than their own nation. James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings. The other issue is that Jews are proud of their racial heritage. They stick together and separate themselves from Gentiles. I have not researched this; but I wonder if the whole idea of "lost tribes" is false. Scattered does not equal lost.
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Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 220,401
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Agreed *white flag goes up*lol
I know, and don’t ask me where, in the Old Testament, I’m thinking it was Isaiah, Ezekiel, or Jeremiah, the captivity and dispersion was prophecied along with Israel losing their identity afterwards. I can’t even remember the phrasing, and honestly, it would take me awhile to find it. If you have the money I’d like to see you check out the 2 books I recommended, and tell me what you think then. They are kind of long, and boring if you don’t enjoy no frills page after page of information... but they’ll show you what I’m trying to say better than I can ever explain it. If not, I’ll agree to disagree. No use throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
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